Posted on 06/29/2015 8:23:31 AM PDT by don-o
All presumptive evidence of felony should be admitted cautiously; for the law holds it better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent party suffer.”
Why Do The Due Process Concerns Of Innocents Outweigh The State Interest Of Convicting Those That Are Responsible For The Shooting In Waco?
The Blackstone Ratio, a concept attributed to a famous jurist of the 1860’s named Sir William Blackstone, is commonly accepted as a cornerstone of civil liberties and a free society. Closely related to the idea that an individual is innocent until proven guilty, the Blackstone Ratio means that democratic societies do not sacrifice the liberties of the innocent in order to punish the guilty. Democratic societies accept that prioritizing civil liberties of individuals means some guilty people will escape justice in order to preserve a free society.
In a totalitarian society the opposite is true. Totalitarian governments consider the state’s interest in punishing criminals more important than the collateral damage created by innocents suffering in the process. Totalitarian governments believe that casting dragnets to capture the guilty is justified because it is motivated by the goal of reducing crime and insuring the safety of its citizens.
Certainly it is true that all governments have a compelling state interest to reduce crime and punish the guilty. This is even true in democratic societies. It is even reasonable to say that this interest is based on the belief that people in society have the right to be safe from criminal activity. But the state, in an attempt to accomplish its interests, will eventually come in conflict with personal liberties. So how does the American democratic system determine which interests are more important?
Oftentimes rights come in conflict and compete for priority. When they do, the American criminal justice system says we must balance these rights based on the intent and purpose of the Constitution and the impact on civil liberties generally. The Bill of Rights irrefutably places critical priority on the sanctity of individual rights over draconian police arrests and incarcerations justified by state interests like reducing crime or general public safety.
There is no better example than Waco to demonstrate how the state’s interest in punishing the guilty has come in conflict with the civil liberties of innocents and potential eyewitnesses. Regardless of what the currently unreleased facts ultimately reveal about what happened in Waco, it defies reason to assert that more than 170 individuals could possibly have committed a crime or be deserving of $1 million dollar bonds.
As has been widely reported, the Waco PD made it very clear that many of the more than 170 individuals arrested were arrested because of their associations with motorcycle clubs allegedly involved in the Waco shooting. There was absolutely no evidence specified, other than mere organizational association, establishing particularized or specific probable cause for any of the individuals arrested. This is evidenced by the fact that every single arrest was based on an identical and generic fill-in the name affidavit.
It has also been made clear, in complete violation of an individual’s 5th Amendment right to remain silent, that prosecutors and judges imposed $1 million dollar bonds on every individual arrested based on the gravity of the crime scene and the non-cooperation of those arrested. Bail is intended to insure that an individual does not flee. It is not intended to be a punitive measure. And the right not to be forced into statements of self-incrimination is elementary, understood by almost everyone, particularly those that work in the judiciary system like prosecutors and judges.
Mere membership in a group, even a group that contains convicted felons, does not establish probable cause. As articulated by a recent ACLU press release related to Waco, “While all the facts of this tragic incident are still unclear, we do know that if any of the more than 170 arrests were based solely on membership in a group, the Constitution demands more, including probable cause. Mere membership in a group should never be the basis of an arrest. And dragnet arrests raise the specter of overzealous police work, just like we’ve seen at our border and in cities around the country.”
It cannot credibly be argued that the Waco arrest and punitive bond tactics employed by law enforcement and government authorities is not resulting in the suffering of innocents. While incarcerated, innocent people are separated from their families, loved ones, employers, and the enjoyment of every civil liberty enjoyed by free citizens. Many of the accused are still incarcerated. And even those that have been released had to pay a bond and agree to further restrictions on behavior and associations.
So how should this have been handled? It’s not my job to decide how law enforcement does its job beyond demanding, and hoping that others demand, that whatever tactics employed respect baseline constitutional principles and individual liberties in order to protect the innocent and the foundations of a free society.
There is a reason the Blackstone Ratio is a critical component of a democratic criminal justice system. Everyone, not just bikers, should be deeply concerned about tactics that cause innocents to suffer. And this is true even if it means the guilty escape prosecution. Sure, rounding up and arresting every biker, or catholic, or Muslim, or teenager with a trench coat, or eyewitness to a crime will most likely include those responsible for the crime being investigated. But these draconian dragnets also ensnare innocent people that suffer from damage to their families, employment, reputations, finances, and the enjoyment of the basic freedoms intended to be guaranteed to every American.
Hush child. The adults are talking.
The more they try to keep info from the public and those they accused of a crime; the worse the police and prosecutors in Waco look and by extension.
You know this, how? I’ll wager a $50 FR donation that there is not one person jailed per Twin Peaks who has not been advised of their charges or not charged and released. Come up with ONE (1), objectively verifiable innocent citizen as you claim.
Secondly, the WPD and DA are investigating all the circumstances or working on the court cases. Why would they care to dirty their prosecutions and jury pool by publically displaying evidence? The criminal defendants will get access to 100% during discovery. You do know what discovery is, don’t ya?
Whether pinhead bike gang sympathizers believe it or not, the legal system works fairly well.
By adults you mean you are cryin to the Mods about being ‘disrespected’ again for the 40th time?
You wish to be respected as an adult, start acting like one. Instead of some 8th grader drolling about a new Honda.
Disrespected...... where did we hear that before? Of yeah, that was what started the shooting at Twin Peaks.
Now that is one of the funniest post I have read in a long time. When I read these posts it reminds me of holidays when you have to be around Liberal family members. There is such vial in their remarks makes you think they have been ran off the road by a group of bikers and never forgave them.
They wake up needing a nap.
If you will try to be good, you can open one present before bedtime.
Lol...bingo!
I've just been around the fringes of this, been around rebels and "outlaw" men all my life. Right off the top of my head I can think of THREE felons who are absolutely hands-down among THE most righteous stand-up guys of my personal and long acquaintance, the kinds of guys who may live and look a little or a lot shady, depending, but who know how to fight well and smart and on the RIGHT side. The kinds of guys who would swiftly and discreetly dispense with heavy bad-ass elements that tried to screw with them or anyone they cared about.
So no, I wasn't being sarcastic. I think the criminal propensities of the Bandidos, while there in a percentage of clubs and membership, have been vastly exaggerated by LEO to the public at large, and I bought that exaggeration hook, line, and sinker until I started paying more attention.
Says the child who tried to get the Waco threads shut down.
Bwahahahahaha
That was 2013. Since theb the Bandidos have reformed and only do good stuff like toy runs for the kids.
Yes it’s a good example of how the criminal biker gangs really operate...when they’re not organizing safety meetings and delivering toys to the kids!
/smokescreen
Your into a pretty absurd approach at defending yourself or your indefensible criminal bike “buddies”. Actually, its not too far from the way you started your inept apology tour.
How does your actions of trying to cover up the truth or you propensity make un-Christian attacks and even personal threats, equate with your claim of “orthodox Christianity”?
Again, for the umpteenth time, tell us how your criminal gang heros Constitutional Rights have been violated. Your lack of sincerity leads normal people to believe the bike gangers are not being deprived of any rights or due process as you so ineloquently claim and your intent is, no different that the queers ploy, to make them appear to be normal upstanding citizens that are misunderstood by all us stupid law abiding folks.
You ask for just one innocent victim. Howabout 170 plus.
When you can only look at this through the lens of a jack booted thug; there is no way to show you how wrong LE and their acomplices are in this fiasco.
This thing is really going to cost Waco and the State of Texas many millions; maybe hundreds of millions before it all said and done.
It will be written up in all the police handbooks of how NOT to deal with a lawful crowd of innocent people.
I really could care less about how you or any other jack boot thinks about bikers. Whether you like it or not; they are everyday Americans just like anyone else.
To compare them to street gangs like MS-13, Crips, and Bloods just shows how ignorant LE is about bikers.
I can see now, those of you who have this attitude about bikers, are simply damaged just like obie tobie liberals. A mental defect you can’t control and it just makes you more dangerous because you have a bit of power.
That’s what scares me most about the corrupt cop backers on these Waco threads. We all know most cops a decent but anyone with even a sliver of common sense can see the cops in this Waco incident are corrupt and so are those who back them on these threads. No getting around it now.
Happy Independence Day.
Well, I am flabbergasted by the sheer stupidity of such asinine unmitigated bullshit you posted.
Do you think everyone except 3 or 4 of your bike gang sympathizer comrades are all wrong? That reality of the substantiated facts is all wrong? That what took place at Twin Peaks was a “lawful crowd of innocent people”? You can not seriously pretend such idiocy, obviously you are a saboteur trying to undermine the integrity of this conservative Free Republic forum.
To put it as nicely as I can, you just posted the most insane crap ever on FR. PERIOD!
You are a shame to Free Republic! If anything should get someone zotted, you just posted a nuclear level baldfaced bunch of lies that is designed to deceive and make FR look extremely bad.
There is nothing more you could ever say, no act of contrition to repair your wrecked image on FR.
Dude, that’s way over the top.
It may well be that some of the nearly 200 people arrested deserve it. But it certainly appears at this time that LEOs went way overboard and arrested lots of people without any real connection to the violence that took place. Belonging to a non 1% club that came to the meeting may be proof that they are naive, but it’s not a criminal offense.
So can I take that to mean you disagree?
You must be a CO at El Reno...
Have you truly looked at how all this went down?
There are tons of unanswered questions and observations by folks like us we noticed from jump street
I’ll give you my first two?
Why all this crazy overcharging?
I reviewed about 6 I think of the dead bikers.....from screenshots by media that could zoom in
No blood trails....dropped where they were shot...several shot off their touristy looking Hogs
How can they conduct a gun battle like that and with that sort of accuracy
We here all know now kind of an educated guess what happened likely....I’ll share if you care to hear it
This is cop overkill and coverup
And it will trickle out
I know bikers lives value to you about like the confederate flag does to neocons and race baiters
But that’s where it all starts
Which is what worries us here
Have you changed the filters in the air cleaner down there in the basement? Because, if that mold and mildew comes back, we are going to cut off the internet down there.
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