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To: roamer_1
When Paul refused to allow Titus to be circumcised, were either he or Titus in deliberate disobedience to the Torah?

No.

Then please describe the nature of the controversy over Titus in Jerusalem in Galatians 2.

There is no requirement for circumcision of adult males in Torah. There were many 'righteous gentiles' living among the Israelis from the very beginning.

Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant. (Gen. 17:14)

Circumcision was a covenant sign both for the Abrahamic covenant, but the Mosaic one. To whom is the above verse referring? Uncircumcised adult males, or uncircumcised infants?

If a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised. Then he may come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. (Exod. 12:48)

If there was no requirement for adult males to be circumcised, then why are they forbidden from participating in the passover? In fact, the very next verse tells us,

There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you. (12:49)

Why did Joshua circumcise the entire nation of Israel (Josh. 5), the generation that was not born in Egypt, if there was no requirement that males be circumcised?

425 posted on 03/05/2014 7:34:56 PM PST by RansomOttawa (tm)
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To: RansomOttawa

The circumcision requirement was for the temple.

When the temple was destroyed, the relevance of circumcision became a tradition, rather than a need under Torah.

The renewed covenant has no requirement for circumcision of the flesh. Paul explained that several times.He spoke of “circumcision of the heart” being equivalent.


427 posted on 03/05/2014 7:42:32 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: RansomOttawa
Then please describe the nature of the controversy over Titus in Jerusalem in Galatians 2.

I already did: [roamer_1:] "There is no requirement for circumcision of adult males in Torah. There were many 'righteous gentiles' living among the Israelis from the very beginning."

Circumcision was a covenant sign both for the Abrahamic covenant, but the Mosaic one. To whom is the above verse referring? Uncircumcised adult males, or uncircumcised infants?

After the initial circumcisions, only infants were left to be circumcised. Thus any Israeli would be circumcised as a matter of course on the 8th day. So any adult male circumcisions would be concerning gentiles.

After the initial circumcisions, the only mass circumcision of gentiles was performed as a ruse to disable their army, whereupon all were killed.

If there was no requirement for adult males to be circumcised, then why are they forbidden from participating in the passover?

Uncircumcised adult gentile proselytes were forbidden from the Passover unless they were circumcised - but their House could participate - providing their sons were circumcised, they too could participate. The only other prohibition was that uncircumcised males had to remain in the court of the Gentiles. With the exception of those two prohibitions, 'righteous gentiles' were to be treated as citizens, not as an underclass, which is the point of the following verse that you had pointed to.

The point to me, is a matter of coercion. After the initial circumcisions, necessarily coerced (demanded) by YHWH to set the pattern of circumcision, proselytes were not to be coerced, but rather, allowed to take an informed decision as to their commitment. Since the function of the circumcision is inter-generational rather than personal, the inter-generational function is fulfilled in the children born to the proselyte and properly circumcised. The circumcision of the proselyte himself does not serve that function - It is a personal commitment.

And it is the coercive nature against that personal decision which is on point in the controversy wrt Titus (and several other examples). The personal decision IS the circumcision of the heart - which is the better circumcision, and is *never* coerced. In as much as that personal decision is already taken in the circumcision of the heart, that it is transmitted into the circumcision of the flesh becomes a moot point.

521 posted on 03/06/2014 9:42:59 AM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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