The Mandate Represents What’s Wrong With Democrats

Weekly Standard Blog ^ | Jun 27, 2012 | JAY COST

[sickoflibs]

RE :”This is not being reported accurately according to the quotes above. It means they DID strike down the mandate but said that if they want to levy a tax, that’s ok. If true, good luck with that. ;-)”

The way FNC and was talking it sounded like it might be that, but I am pretty sure the SCOTUS just renamed the mandate a tax, which would make the above just empty words because it keeps it intact without changes.

After all that was the Obama legal argument and not a bad one if you consider how targeted tax credits work.

[cuban leaf]

The tax is the way the mandate will be funded. It means that if it stays, it will be the biggest tax hike in US history.

[stephenjohnbanker]

” I don’t think very many reasonable people actually saw the Hail Mary “Tax Claim” to be substantive. I am astounded that Roberts bought off on it. Simply amazing...”

I have a very bad feeling that Roberts family was threatened......a VERY bad feeling.

[sickoflibs]

RE :”Your list of reasons should have included a number 3) It is reasonable to think the individual mandate should fail, because the claim involving the Commerce Clause could not stand SCOTUS scrutiny.”

You are assuming that justices take a law and the constitution and make decisions in a vacuum. They don't. They also consider prior legal precedents and Roberts said many times in his confirmation hearings that he would do that. Scalia and Thomas do much less of that and have more inspiring rulings that throw out those FDR precedents.

The legal precedents (since FDR ) that are consistent with this are :
1) targeted tax credits, 2) Medicare
Judges have grown the Constitution (Federal power) greatly since FDR.

Using the power to income tax to reward and punish us has been used for decades, this personal mandate is new only in that it is a reverse tax credit(it has no penalty for not paying it) , and a weak one too,

I can walk through an example, I had some insulation added to my house and got a tax deduction for doing that. So I paid less taxes for buying something that the government wanted-me to do. Do I like this?? NO! But it's the country we live in.

[sickoflibs]

RE :”I confess that there is the possibility that this will actually hurt obama in the election, but time will tell. It is like a complicated chess game and the results of single moves are not always immediately apparent.”

Regardless of that, the reason why I think Romney and Boehner wanted the whole bill upheld is that they were scared, if it looked like a Republican victory, that voters would be directed to them to propose/pass an alternative at least for the freebee stuff. They dont want that.

Obama’ appearing to score a big victory could play either way, Americans love a winner, but as health care costs go up he will continue to get the blame.

[cuban leaf]

—I have a very bad feeling that Roberts family was threatened......a VERY bad feeling.—

I have almost no doubt.

I am, more and more, considering this to be our Reichtag fire. Reasonable people are shocked by this decision, even if they are for Obamacare.

We are like a family with little income and facing foreclosure and dad just got the loan for a new motorhome. Enjoy that first tank of gas.

[ding_dong_daddy_from_dumas]

Evidently the bill had stated that if states wouldn’t expand their Medicaid programs to cover massive numbers of new people, the federal government could/would cut off all Medicaid funding to the state. The SCOTUS nixed that.

They wrote that, but look at how easily Obama found an excuse to "nullify" the SCOTUS rule that states could determine the immigration status of people, by just refusing to work with AZ.

Note also that Obama also makes political decisions about which states get disaster aid (he knew he was going to lose Texas in 2012, so id disaster aid is another political slush fund, better to spend it on states he has a chance to win).

[cuban leaf]

—Note also that Obama also makes political decisions about which states get disaster aid (he knew he was going to lose Texas in 2012, so id disaster aid is another political slush fund, better to spend it on states he has a chance to win).—

That is just politics as played on the national, and state levels. Has been for a long, long time. I don’t like it, but it’s how the system works.

[DoughtyOne]

I can walk through an example, I had some insulation added to my house and got a tax deduction for doing that. So I paid less taxes for buying something that the government wanted-me to do. Do I like this?? NO! But it's the country we live in.

You were not forced to add insulation to your home.

[DoughtyOne]

That’s true.

[sickoflibs]

RE :”You were not forced to add insulation to your home.’

You mean like I am forced to buy medicare with those payroll taxes even if I dont want it? No one on FNC expects medicare to be overturned. Hell, half their viewers are on medicare.

[sickoflibs]

RE :”You were not forced to add insulation to your home. “

That particular personal mandate that was challenged doesnt ‘force’ us to buy insurance if we want to be uninsured. If it did there would be zero uninsured on day 1.

Instead the law does nothing to those who still don't buy insurance, except maybe deduct a few hundred from your tax refund check assuming you were even due one. And then when you get sick you just sign up for an insuance policy and get those expensive cancer treatments at others expense.

If Obama-care really does jack premiums up then you will see many Americans proving that no one 'forced' them to buy insurance by remaining uninsured. 'forced' was just hype.

There are other mandates in the bill, some were overturned.

[DoughtyOne]

RE :”You were not forced to add insulation to your home.’

You mean like I am forced to buy medicare with those payroll taxes even if I dont want it? No one on FNC expects medicare to be overturned. Hell, half their viewers are on medicare.

That's a reasonable response, but if you think about it, even here there is a vast difference with what is being planed with the individual mandate.

Congress ruled that Medicare funding would be deducted from our paychecks on a regular basis.

They did not mandate that we buy our own Medicare policies, then fine us through the I. R. S. if we didn't.

So why can't the government fine us through the IRS for not buying a Chevy Volt?

Under a Medicare model, that doesn't make sense.  Under the new mandate model, it does.

 

[sickoflibs]

RE :”That's a reasonable response, but if you think about it, even here there is a vast difference with what is being planed with the individual mandate.
Congress ruled that Medicare funding would be deducted from our paychecks on a regular basis.
They did not mandate that we buy our own Medicare policies, then fine us through the I. R. S. if we didn't”

Alternatively if you don't ‘buy’ medicare coverage with those payroll taxes you go to jail. Heck, remember the SS argument :”I paid in” ???

But if you dont buy health insurance and you still dont pay the ‘fine’ they dont do anything to you, nothing, and you can still get insurance later after you get sick.

Check LOL

[DoughtyOne]

No, you’re right. It doesn’t force you. You will just be fined about 2.5% of your income if you don’t.

Income $ 50k: $ 500.00
Income $100k: $1000.00
Income $250k: $2500.00
Income $1m: $10000.00

If you make $1 million or more a year, you’re essentially self-insured, not a burden on the system. None the less, you’ll be making big payments into the system or else.

[ding_dong_daddy_from_dumas]

That is just politics as played on the national, and state levels. Has been for a long, long time. I don’t like it, but it’s how the system works.

Have other POTUSes used disaster aid as a political slush fund?

[sickoflibs]

RE :”No, you’re right. It doesn’t force you. You will just be fined about 2.5% of your income if you don’t.”

I never heard that fixed 2.5% number. I thought it was ~ $800 per individual. You wont get health insurance for that.

But there is NO ‘fine’ for not paying the ‘fine’. You ever hear of a fine like that? Try not paying a parking ticket. They will jack up a $50 ticket to 1K eventually, then take your car.

[Impy]

Sickoflibs: Let me shock you, I bet Romney and Boehner secretly wanted the whole bill upheld for purely political reasons. They were scared it would be overturned and the spotlight might point at them.

That doesn't shock me. I had a similar but less cynical thought, maybe they'd want it upheld not cause they were "scared" but because they'd find it advantageous to still have the issue to run on in November. But I doubt if Roberts was thinking about the election.

Sickoflibs: it looks like Roberts found his horse’s head in his bed.

stephenjohnbanker: I have a very bad feeling that Roberts family was threatened......a VERY bad feeling.

I don't buy it for a second. Maybe he was bribed but he's probably just a FRIGGIN idiot.

[cuban leaf]

—Have other POTUSes used disaster aid as a political slush fund?—

Dunno. I’m talking about the concept in general. It is how politics works.

[stephenjohnbanker]

” stephenjohnbanker: I have a very bad feeling that Roberts family was threatened......a VERY bad feeling.

I don’t buy it for a second. Maybe he was bribed but he’s probably just a FRIGGIN idiot. “

Roberts is a very intelligent man. How could he, all of a sudden, be this stupid?