Replies

JCBreckenridge referring to John Brown: "The fact that he was in Confederate territory and was gun running for the North in the first place.
Those civilians never should have died, least of all at the hands of a terrorist supported by the federal government."

I'm certain that you well know: Harper's Ferry was not "Confederate territory" in 1859.
Indeed, on the border of West Virginia and Maryland, it remained Union territory except during interludes of Confederate army invasions, most notably in September 1862.

And, you have no evidence of Federal support for Brown, especially since between 1856 and his hanging in 1859, Southern and Dough-Faced Democrats controlled both houses of Congress, the Presidency, Supreme Court and military units lead by Robert E. Lee and Thomas Jackson.
So the Federal Government is blameless in this affair.

Yes, Brown did have northern financial supporters, most notoriously a group from Boston who became known as the "Secret Six".
After Brown's raid, the six were exposed, most had to flee to Canada to avoid arrest, one checked into an insane asylum and one soon died from tuberculosis.

Curiously, the Brown supporter who checked himself into the insane asylum -- his name was Gerrit Smith -- also in 1867 sent money to help post bail for another imprisoned luminary: Jefferson Davis.

Talk about crazy! ;-)

JCBreckenridge: "The confederacy never declared war on the United states."

Here yet again is the Confederacy's formal declaration of war.

JCBreckenridge: "The Union had already launched their invasion of the South.
The war was already on by this point.
Lincoln did not believe in issuing a formal declaration of war - but he declared war through is actions."

No Confederate soldier was killed directly by any Union force until after the Confederacy declared war, on May 6, 1861.
No Union force made any move to "invade" the South until after the Confederacy declared war.
Just as Lincoln had promised in his Inaugural speech on March 4, there could be no war unless the Confederacy started it, and that's just what they did.

JCBreckenridge: "Which is why the Union army outnumbered the Confederates at 1st Manassas? Bullshit.
The union never fought an engagement where they were outnumbered the entire war."

Just a few examples of the Confederacy's rush to war:

One day after Lincoln's election on November 6, 1860, South Carolina authorities arrested a Federal official they caught in the act of transferring military supplies from Charleston arsenal to Fort Moultrie.
Six days later, November 13, at a time when the entire US Army totaled around 17,000 troops, most scattered in posts out west, South Carolina's legislature authorized raising an army of 10,000 troops.
On December 27, seven days after declaring secession, South Carolina forces seized Federal Forts Moultrie and Castle Pinckney.
In the next several weeks, dozens of Federal properties were seized throughout the Confederacy.
On March 3, less than a month after taking office, and still a day before Lincoln's inauguration, Confederacy President Jefferson Davis ordered preparations to assault and seize Fort Sumter.
Three days later on March 6, while the US Army is still only 17,000 strong, still mostly scattered out west, the Confederate Congress authorized raising a 100,000 man army.
On April 6, President Lincoln informed South Carolina Governor Pickens of the coming resupply mission to Fort Sumter.
Lincoln promised there would be no military reinforcements if the mission is not interfered with.
In response, the Confederacy immediately begins final preparations to assault and seize Fort Sumter.
The day following Fort Sumter's surrender to Confederate forces, President Lincoln announced a state of insurrection and called for 75,000 troops for three months to suppress it.
At this point, Confederate forces still outnumber Union.
On April 23, before formally declaring war, Confederate President Davis offered aid to Confederate forces in Union Missouri.
On the same day, still before formally declaring war, Union officers seized in San Antonio, Texas are treated as POWs.
On April 29, the Confederate Congress granted war-powers to Jefferson Davis.
On May 3, President Lincoln called for 42,000 three year volunteers, bringing the Union total to 156,000 soldiers.
For the first time, at least on paper, the Union army outnumbered Confederates.
But not for long...
On May 6, the Confederacy formally declares war on the United States, and three days later, Davis authorizes another 400,000 3-year Confederate soldiers.
On July 4, Lincoln asks Congress to authorize another 400,000 soldiers, thus matching Davis' request of May 6.
Finally, at the Battle of First Bull Run / Manassas, the two sides were evenly matched (18,000 actually engaged on each side) and suffered roughly the same numbers of casualties.

As for some of the other largest battles:

Bragg nearly matched Rosecrans at Stone's River in 1862, and outnumbered him at Chicamaugua, which Bragg won.
Lee was nearly always grossly outnumbered by Pope, Hooker, McClelland and Grant, but against Meade at Gettysburg, Lee's forces nearly matched him overall, and outnumbered the Union in some engagements.

JCBreckenridge: "Yes, it was very much a constitutional issue, revolving around the relationship between the federal government and the states."

Once the Confederacy formally declared war on the United States, all "constitutional issues" disappeared.

JCBreckenridge: "The same Constitution which guarantees the right of the state to leave should the state be forced to do something contrary to the pact between the states."

Of couse, the Constitution itself says nothing about secession.
The Founders understood and expressed their Original Intent that secession was authorized by mutual consent or by, in effect, a material breech of contract.
Neither condition existed in early November 1860, when South Carolina first called for a secession convention.

JCBreckenridge: "Which makes sense, unless you believe that the federal government should be able to override the states and strip them of their constitutional rights whenever it wants.
Like Lincoln did.
Had Lincoln settled the issue peaceably, and constitutionally, the issue would have been resolved without bloodshed.
But he chose to go to war."

Lincoln chose to resupply Federal troops in Fort Sumter.
The Confederacy chose to use that as an excuse to start and then formally declare war.

JCBreckenridge: "Again, the Confederacy never engaged in war against the United States."

Once again, you've wandered into anti-historical fantasy land.

JCBreckenridge: "Why then did Washington do the same in the war of independence.
Forts within American territory became the property of the United States, not that of Britain."

No British fort in United States territory -- not one -- somehow magically became US property just because our Founders declared their independence.
Every British asset had to be taken by force of arms, and some were never taken -- i.e., those Great Lakes forts, some of which remained in British hands for another 30 years after the Revolutionary War formally ended.

JCBreckenridge: "The forts in the confederacy were confederate territory when the states seceded.
Union action to matinain the forts was an occupation of confederate territory."

Just as with those British forts, Federal forts in Confederate territory could become property of the Confederacy through negotiations or through war.
The Confederacy chose war, obviously because it would be much quicker and easier than spending months or years trying to negotiate a peaceful solution.

JCBreckenridge: "Again, the will of the people for liberty cannot be quenched through force.
They can try, but that will not extinguish it.
They can hammer the south into pebbles, but they cannot quench this desire."

The lessons of history are pretty clear: if you declare war on the United States, your life will not improve as a result.

JCBreckenridge: "Was it foolishness that they stood up for themselves and for liberty against the North? Hardly.
The union had no right to force them to stay against their will."

It is nearly always foolish to chose war when war is not necessary.
Nothing forced the Confederacy to seize Fort Sumter, or to formally declare war on the United States.

JCBreckenridge: "Sorry, you are right. It was not purchased. It was ceded to the US after the treaty of Ghent in 1814."

Sorry, but you are still confused.
What were then called the "Northwest Territories" included current states of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan and Wisconsin.
This area was assigned to the United States by the 1786 Treaty of Paris.
Some British forts in this territory were not finally evacuated until after the War of 1812.

JCBreckenridge: "The British had to negotiate with the Native tribes first before the territory could be ceded over to the Americans.
The treaty of Paris did not stipulate the cessation of the territory until the British were satisfied."

So the bottom line is: our Founders resolved a forts issue with the British through complex negotiations over a period of decades.
By contrast, the Confederacy tried to "resolve" its forts issues with the United States by first demanding surrender, and then starting war, all in a matter of weeks in 1860 & 1861.

JCBreckenridge referring to the fact that our Founders never declared war on Great Britain: "Bullshit. Got anymore fairy tales?"

OK FRiend, you're on: produce the alleged document where the Founders declared war on Britain.

JCBreckenridge: "It was never owned by the Union.
The Union did not build it or construct it."

Federal properties throughout the nation were built, paid for and Federally owned through funds appropriated by Congress from the Federal treasury.
Fort Sumter is especially interesting because it was built on seventy thousand tons of granite imported from New England to build up a sand bar in the entrance to Charleston Harbor.

JCBreckenridge: "They were invaded by a superior power who sought to crush them. The South had no choice. They had to fight as best as they could as long as they could."

Utter nonsense.
From the beginning, slave-holding secessionists were the aggressors against the United States, aggression that neither Presidents Buchanan nor Lincoln seriously responded to until after the Confederacy took Fort Sumter and declared war on the United States.

JCBreckenridge: "Then why didn’t they ravage the North the way the North ravaged the South? They did not want war."

But of course, they did exactly that, and they did want war, as I've explained now in some detail.
During the war, especially in the beginning, the Confederacy-proper (11 states) invaded or had forces operating in every state and territory adjacent to the Confederacy, and some a considerable distance away.

JCBreckenridge: "Who said this? Davis? No. He believed they would lose."

So you accuse Confederate leaders of utter stupidity, to the point of insanity?
That they would start a war they expected to lose?
How crazy is that?

Of course, I agree: they were both stupid and insane, but naturally I wouldn't expect you to say such a thing.
I would have expected more respect from you for them.

JCBreckenridge: "It makes no logical sense.
It makes logical sense, that the Union, with the manpower, logistical and supply advantages to invade the South to crush them."

Once again you accuse the Confederate leadership of stupidity and insanity!
Frankly, I'm absolutely amazed to learn we share such opinions.
I would never have expected it.

JCBreckenridge: "We disagree, vehemently, on what constitutes confederate territory.
You don’t even believe that Virginia was confederate!"

Of course, the entire "Confederacy" was an unconstitutional and unlawful fiction, but I gladly set that aside for purposes of this discussion.

Factually speaking, the Confederacy-proper eventually consisted of 11 states which formally voted to secede and join.
This Confederacy-proper then immediately began claiming, invading, assaulting and occupying every Union state and territory adjacent to the Confederacy-proper.
Those are just facts.
And that's why the war began as a War of Confederate Aggression against the United States.

JCBreckenridge: "Facts are facts.
The North invaded the South, and the South fought a 4 year defensive war.
You might not like that but it’s the truth."

Sorry, but that's false.
The Confederacy was always "on offense", where-ever when-ever it could be, even late in the war.
And early in the war it had the advantages of skilled leadership with highly motivated troops, resulting in unexpected victories.
As I've repeated now many times: Confederate aggression took its armies into every Union state and territory adjacent to the Confederacy-proper.

JCBreckenridge: "Antietam was fought on confederate territory..."

As explained now several times: neither Maryland nor any other state and territory adjacent to the Confederacy-proper ever formally voted to join the confederacy.
In Maryland's case, Unionists outnumbered Confederates by more than two to one, judging from military enlistments.

JCBreckenridge: "So you’re arguing that because the North invaded the South, the South never touched areas like New York? Thank you."

In fact, the Confederacy invaded every Union state and territory it could physically reach. Thank you.

JCBreckenridge: "Uh, BULLSHIT.
The draft riots were from Northern citizens who were upset that other northerners were buying their way out of the draft."

Then as now, New York had many citizens highly sympathetic to America's enemies.

JCBreckenridge: "Would Lincoln trade the state of New York for Fort Donaldson? No.
Then why would he expect the confederacy to do the same?"

At the time -- March 1861 -- Virginia had not voted to join the Confederacy, and seemed apparently inclined to stay in the Union.
Lincoln wanted assurances that Virginia would stay Union if / when push might come to shove.
Virginians would not provide such assurances, and indeed when the time came they quickly declared secession and joined Confederacy.

JCBreckenridge: "Because the Confederacy never declared war on the United States.
They couldn’t.
After the secession of the Confederacy, the United States no longer existed as a legal entity.
The Union did exist, and because the Union won the war, the United States was restored at the end of the war."

As I've explained now at great length, your understandings of basic facts of history are deeply flawed.

JCBreckenridge: "The Union had already invaded the south prior to May 8th."

If you refer to Lincoln's resupply mission to Fort Sumter, that was in no sense an "invasion."
So what other "invasion" are you referring to?

JCBreckenridge: "Which is why you are clinging to pure fantasy.
Fact of the matter was, the was was already on by May 8th, and I went to great lengths in the previous post to show why this was the case."

Actually, you've never referred to the date May 8 before, and since May 6, 1861 was the date of the Confederacy's declaration of war, I don't know why you do now.
Regardless, just what exactly is it you think you "went to great lengths" to show?

JCBreckenridge: "‘Confederacy-proper’. That’s a qualifier.
I am not using a qualifier.
I am including all the states and territories that at some point after South Carolina seceded, passed an ordinance of secession in the state legislature."

No state or territory outside the "Confederacy-proper" ever passed a valid declaration of secession.
Yes, in several states and territories a few slave-holders got together over drinks and declared their secession, but none of them represented the states' voters.

And that will have to do it for tonight.
We seem to be about two-thirds of the way through your post.
Perhaps the next effort will complete it.

Looks like Maryland tops the list for next time. ;-)