NATURAL BORN CITIZENSHIP NOT DEFINED BY BIRTH CERTIFICATES

The Daily Pen ^ | 02/26/2012 | Dan Crosby

[TexasVoter]

Today, you can apparently be born under foreign paternity on a remote, multicultural, migratory island hub way out in the Pacific ocean, move to Indonesia with your foreign, non-citizen step-father, attend school under the name and religious identity of that patriarch, then suddenly reappear back on the island four years later under suspicious circumstances without any evidence of repatriation, and none of these circumstances prompts anyone in our government or media to ever so much as question your claim to Natural-born eligibility.

[Yosemitest]

Here's something to ponder.

Does this help?

I think it more likely that the trip from Kenya actually occurred in August 1961, shortly after BHO-II's birth at the Coast Province General Hospital in Mombasa.

Ann and her newborn son flew from Nairobi to London, via BOAC Flight BA162 and then took the non-stop BOAC flight from London to Vancouver, Canada. She then traveled the 110 miles or so, across the border, to Seattle in time to start Fall Semester, night-school extension classes at the University of Washington.

The trip would be challenging for a new mother, but she was young, healthy, intelligent, and capable. BOAC was very accomodating to mothers with young children back in the 1960s. No real problem!

From the Airline Timetable Images - List of Complete Timetables, the cost of BOAC from April 24,1960 until October 1, 1962 was:

From Vancouver to Nairobi cost in Canadian Dollars:
Single Return
DL 1115.00 2026.80
F 1055.50 1918.80
T 764.00 1396.00
Y 701.00 1282.60



Passanger Fares could be "FLY NOW AND PAY LATER".
Arrangements could be made whereby residents of certain areas may, on payment of a 10% deposit, travel immediately and pay the balance of fare in monthly instalments.

Passanger Information for that time frame can be found here.
Connections from Nairobi - Lusaka - Salisbury can be found here.

The BOAC World Routes Map is found here.

Departure arrival times from Britian to Nairobi are found here.

Departure arrival times for London and Vancouver are found here.

Now think about those facts,and statements.

[Ha Ha Thats Very Logical]

Hawaii is still in transition from “a remote, multicultural, migratory island hub way out in the Pacific ocean”, to a state, with goofy laws

Wait, is this the new birther line of attack? That Hawaii somehow wasn't a "real" state but some kind of semi-state that hadn't really earned its statehood yet? People have been joking for years that birthers would eventually start demanding Hawaii's statehood certificate--has that day come?

But seriously: do you guys accept that Hawaii qualified as one of the United States for Article II purposes, or not? If so, why even bring up its remoteness or its multiculturalness--isn't that irrelevant?

[TexasVoter]

“The Saint Francis School Foundation (St. Francis Assisi School, Djakarta, Indonesia) is an entity incorporated in the State of Connecticut.”

Could you please document or source this compelling citation?

Do you know if St. Francis Assisi School received funding from or had some other kind of relationship to the Ford Foundation’s Asia program? That program was headed by Peter Geithner, father of Timothy “Tax Cheat” Geithner. I understand Stanley Ann Soetoro was an employee or even a developer of the Ford Foundation’s Asia program while she lived in Indonesia.

[Yosemitest]

Consider these witnesses:

---

Let's examine
how Hawaii legally can issue bcs for those born out of state
and then hide this fact
by issuing a certificate stating BORN IN HAWAII OAHU HONOLULU"

I refer you to Birth Certificate Vs. Certification Of Live Birth.

We just did a story bringing to light how
the U.S. Army revoked the orders of a Major scheduled to deploy to Afghanistan
after he filed a lawsuit
claiming that the deployment would be illegal
due to the fact that Barack Obama has failed to produce a birth certificate,
therefore he has not proven his eligibility to be Commander-In-Chief.

To say that we started a firestorm would be putting it mildly.

We had our fair share of rational responses,
as well as the usual off-topic comments, accusations of being right-wing nuts, etc.

As well as a few that were too obscene to put into print.

It turns out that our theory
that the document presented by Obama appears to be homemade has some support,
in that it seems that there is a difference between a “Certification of Live Birth” as opposed to a “Certificate of Live Birth.”

Our friend Pamela at Atlas Shrugs also presents a compelling case
that the document presented as proof that Obama is a natural-born American citizen is indeed a forgery.

And for you Obamanites
who claim that there is no difference between a Certification of Live Birth and a Birth Certificate,
we, as well as the State of Hawaii, would have to disagree with you.

Pay close attention to the following Hawaiian legal statute:

“[§338-17.8]  Certificates for children born out of State.
(a)  Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child,
the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor,
provided that proof has been submitted to the director of health
that the legal parents of such individual
while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii
had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year
immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.

(b)  Proof of legal residency shall be submitted to the director of health
in any manner that the director shall deem appropriate. 
The director of health may also adopt any rules pursuant to chapter 91
that he or she may deem necessary or proper to prevent fraudulent applications for birth certificates
and to require any further information or proof of events
necessary for completion of a birth certificate.

(c)  The fee for each application for registration shall be established by rule adopted pursuant to chapter 91.
[L 1982, c 182, §1]”

Everybody get that?

As long as an adult can walk into Hawaii’s version of the Department of Records
and provide proof that they (the parents) are a legal resident of Hawaii,
the document is issued.

The child, on the other hand, could have been born in Hawaii, KENYA, or a back-alley in Budapest.
How much more proof do you disciples of the Messiah need
before you will admit
that there are legitimate reasons
to demand answers on this issue?

Of course the fact that
Obama may have been elected to our nation’s highest office in direct violation of the United States Constitution
is NOT something that would greatly trouble a dedicated Kool-Aid drinker.

But you STILL WON'T ACCEPT THE TRUTH that
Barack Hussein Obama II ...is ...
THE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT IN CHIEF!!!



Here is some more information and links

and all of this without using the link to "the source of the "moderator-offending-video" by a group called The Council of Conservative Citizens.
This is NOT a Conservative group, do not be fooled by the name.
This group is a front group for a neo-Nazi group known as the National Alliance and is associated with Stormfront.

(But I don't see how those groups are MORE OFFENSIVE THAN the Marxists and Fascists in the White House.)

I have several witnesses, that have proven to me that Barack Hussein Obama II was born in Kenya.

First witness, Barack Hussein Obama II himself:



From the AP in 2004: Kenyan-born Obama all set for US Senate

Hmm…An AP story from 2004 entitled Kenyan-born Obama all set for US Senate has been discovered on archive.org by many sites (and twitter where I got this). Does this mean now that the AP is nothing but a bunch of birthers?

Kenyan-born US Senate hopeful, Barrack Obama, appeared set to take over the Illinois Senate seat after his main rival, Jack Ryan, dropped out of the race on Friday night amid a furor over lurid sex club allegations. ...


The above artice is also found at FreedomsPhoenix.com.
They have a great spoof Birth Certificate you just gotta' see.
Also view the video at Proof Obama Admits He Was Born In Kenya.


Second witnesses, his mother and father, indirectly through their divorce papers.
Ed Hale, aprivate investigator in Hawaii, has uncovered the divorce decree for Barack Obama’s father and mother, which indicates they had “one child under the age of eighteen, born in Kenya.”
But a later Update 1/1/2009,...
"In his 7:45pm Plains Radio broadcast, this last night, Ed Hale backed down from his prior assertion of having gained even uncertain information about the Barack Sr. / Stanley Ann divorce decree containing language referring to Barack Jr. as being born in Kenya. Instead, Hale referred to an apparently tricky recollection... of an ... referring to such a document's generally referring to the place of birth of the children of the divorced parents."
I believe that "indeterminate person" probably SAW the Obama Dunham Divorce Documents BEFORE Page 11 disappeared and viewed the Kenyan Birth Cerfiticate,
thereby telling Ed Hale
"the divorce decree for Barack Obama’s father and mother, indicates they had 'one child under the age of eighteen, born in Kenya.' ".

The Obama Dunham Divorce Documents are viewable at this location.
There's a great assumption of the time lime at at link.

See the whole Obama 1964 divorce on Scribd.com or as 13 individual images below (in proper order):







I immediately called the clerk in Hawaii and asked where the extra page was. She looked, and counted, and said that there must be some mistake in the records – she counted only 13 pages that are available for reprint. I pointed out to her that the page count she sent skipped from page 10 to page 12 – page 11 was missing. To that, she suggested that perhaps the pages were simply misnumbered before they where archived into the microfiche.

I accepted her answer, not thinking much about it at the time. Perhaps it was just a clerical error in the 1960s, when hand-filed paper records and IBM punch cards were how court documents were tracked and maintained.

I have since come to learn that Obama and his team of lawyers have been working to sanitize his records since he announced that he’d run for President circa November 2004. Now in the White House, he’s still ACTIVELY blocking subpoenas for such documents as his Cambridge and Occidental College records TODAY – the same type of documents promised to be made available during his campaign. Obama and his lawyers are exceedingly adept at exploiting loopholes in Hawaiian birth certificate law to keep Obama’s past hidden from the American people.

This missing page – page 11 – very likely is a copy of the original birth certificate, based upon the prima facie timeline of the 1964 divorce. The Kenya birth certificate was likely requested on Jan 23, 1964 by either Judge King (to award custody on the next trial date), or recommended to Ann Dunham by her attorney for the ex parte divorce, where only one parent was expected to be present.

The missing page, 11, should be chronologically-numbered as all other pages were in the original docket file, by the court clerk at the time. Starting at page 8, Exhibit A is placed where it would have occurred by date in the paperwork (and appeared on microfiche), even denoting an erased, yet barely-readable “8″ on both pages of the returned notification sent to Obama SR. The missing page, numbered as page 11, would likely be a page that would have been admitted to the divorce file sometime in mid- to late-February 1964 – almost as if it were an undocumented “Exhibit B”.

Here’s a very plausible timeline merging the 1964 Obama Divorce papers and new Kenya birth certificate:

Jan 20 (Mon) – divorce request is filed by Stanley Ann D. Obama

Jan 23 (Thur) – divorce orders for trial are given by Judge King at chambers

(note – if the judge, or Ann Dunham’s attorney, told her to order the Kenya birth certificate, it would have been mailed 10,000 miles away, to the “Coast Province” Registrar’s office of the “Republic of Kenya”, likely arriving around the first week of February 1964 to be processed)

Jan 28 (Tue) – Gail A. Watanabe, presumably an assistant of Ann Obama attorney George Kerr, mails the notification for trial to Obama SR (her affidavit is signed Feb 3 and filed)

Jan 30 (Thur) – via Air Mail, notification of trial arrives at Obama SR’s Cambridge, Mass, address. The 10-day “knock and nail” notification would have expired on Sun, Feb 9. Therefore, the next trial date would have been automatically set, per Judge King’s instructions, for the first Tuesday, 30 days later, on March 3

Feb 10 (Mon) – allowing for a 10-day “knock and nail” notification for trial, Obama SR’s trial notification would have been retrieved by the US Post Office on this date, to be mailed back (as events turned out – UNSIGNED by Obama SR) to Hawaii as an exhibit for trial

Feb 17 (Mon) – the Obama Kenya birth certificate is signed by the “Coast Province” Deputy Registrar, to be mailed back to Hawaii for receipt by Ann Obama and/or her attorney
(note: mail time would have ranged from a few days (Air Mail) to a couple of weeks (ship), arriving back in Hawaii in the last week of February to first week of March 3 (Tue). Based upon Judge King’s Jan 23 orders for the next trial date, “at 9:30 a.m. on the first Tuesday after thirty (30) days have elapsed from and after the date” that Obama SR would have been served with the notice of trial. That notification came back, unsigned, by Obama SR, so Ann’s attorneys surely requested, and received Default Judgment for the divorce in her favor for “grievous mental suffering”

Mar 5 (Thur) – trial takes place in favor of divorce in Hawaii, placing custody of Obama JR to his mother by default
(note: the trial was likely rescheduled 2 days after the automatically set date of Mar 3, possibly for the convenience of the judge and/or parties)

Mar 20 (Fri) – the divorce decree is signed by Judge King


In Hawaii, birth certificates are not Public Record. If the Kenya birth certificate was a part of the divorce decree, it may have been pulled out at the end of the trial, or more recently by a watchful archivist or attorneys wishing to remove unfavorable information about Obama.
To date, despite other honest attempts to refute the Kenya birth certificate, such as dealing with when the “Republic of Kenya” came into existence as a republic have been “un-bunked.” Dishonest alterations of the Kenya birth certificate have been maliciously created by sites such as Democratic Underground, designed to discredit the Kenya birth certificate – they’ve been un-bunked as well.

Having not actually seeing the Kenya birth certificate, and it’s chain of evidence, no intellectually-honest person can say if it’s real or not. By the same token, none of us have seen or touched the short-form “Certification of Live Birth” that has appeared on Obama’s “Fight the Smears” or FactCheck.org websites.

No one can confirm the chain of evidence of Obama’s “Certification of Live Birth” that has appeared online, which is the abbreviated-version of Obama’s true, 1961, original long-form(s) “Certificate of Live Birth” and associated vital statistics records. Even the Hawaii Department of Health directly refuses to verify Obama’s online COLBs.



Third witness, is Barack Hussein Obama II's grandmother,Sarah Hussein Obama:
View the video Barack Obama - Born in Kenya II at Youtube.com.

Did Obama's grandmother say he was born in Kenya?The Oct. 16, 2008, telephone interview was conducted by American Christian minister Ron McRae, who describes himself in his affidavit as an overseer of the Anabaptist Churches in North America and a "Presiding Elder on the African Presbytery."

McRae, who called from Detroit, says Sarah Obama was in a public setting with several hundred people listening to the telephone call on a speakerphone. The interpreter was Vitalis Akech Ogombe, the community chairman of Sarah Obama's village of Nyang'oma Kogelo in Western Kenya, 30 miles west of the Lake Victoria-city of Kisumu.

"In the ensuing public conversation, I asked Ms. Obama specifically,
'Were you present when your grandson was born in Kenya?'"
McRae testified in his sworn statement.
"This was asked to her in translation twice, and both times she replied, "Yes! Yes she was! She was present when Obama was born."



Watch and LISTEN to the video BARACK OBAMA - BORN IN KENYA - The Documentary - STUNNING!
and prove it to yourself.
Also watch Affidavit and Tape-Proof Obama Born in Kenya.

The fourth witness, Tim Adams,
"Barack Obama was definitely not born in Hawaii as the White House maintains, and that a long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate for Obama does not even exist in the Aloha State."

(It is now confirmed by Hawaii that Tim Adams did indeed work as a senior elections clerk in 2008)

Election official: I'd testify Obama not born in Hawaii

"The things I've said, I don't mind testifying in court," Tim Adams, the senior elections clerk for the city and county of Honolulu in the 2008 campaign, told WND in an exclusive interview.

"I was working there, and this is what it was. I'm not a lawyer, just a civil servant. I know what I know. I know what I was told by the hospitals and by my supervisors."

"There is no birth certificate," he said. "It's like an open secret. There isn't one. Everyone in the government there knows this."

"I had direct access to the Social Security database, the national crime computer, state driver's license information, international passport information, basically just about anything you can imagine to get someone's identity," Adams explained. "I could look up what bank your home mortgage was in. I was informed by my boss that we did not have a birth record [for Obama]."

At the time, there were conflicting reports that Obama had been born at the Queen's Medical Center in Honolulu, as well as the Kapi'olani Medical Center for Women and Children across town. So Adams says his office checked with both facilities.

"They told us, 'We don't have a birth certificate for him,'" he said. "They told my supervisor, either by phone or by e-mail, neither one has a document that a doctor signed off on saying they were present at this man's birth."

To date, no Hawaiian hospital has provided documented confirmation Obama was born at its facility.

Adams, 45, stressed, "In my professional opinion, he definitely was not born in Hawaii. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that he was not born in Hawaii because there is no legal record of him being born there. If someone called and asked about it, I could not tell them that person was born in the state."

WND confirmed with Hawaiian officials that Adams was indeed working in their election offices during the last presidential election.

"His title was senior elections clerk in 2008," said Glen Takahashi, elections administrator for the city and county of Honolulu.

Adams oversaw a group of 50 to 60 employees and was responsible for verifying the identity of voters, especially absentee voters.

"If you're working in the civil service and you say this, you're done," Adams said. "Don't expect to have a good career, especially since the governor is on the other side. Embarassing them is not good for your career."


The Fifth witness, Michelle Obama.
Watch the video Michelle Obama Admits Kenya is Barack Hussein Obama's Home Country.
Watch the second video, Michelle Obama - Barack Is A Kenyan - Obama Birth Certificate.flv.

From Former Obama Supporters: "Michelle Obama in her own words admits that Barack’s home country is Kenya.
When you hear the MSM report that the Obama Birth Certificate issue is a non-issue and not valid to be debated,
they are telling us an outright lie.
The Constitution states plainly that a person must be a NATURAL BORN CITIZEN to hold the office of POTUS.
When the MSM reports to the public that this is a non-issue or a settled issue
and the people that care about this are “Crazy Birthers” or “Flat Earthers”
they are simply trying to make a valid issue go away."

The Sixth Witness, Kenyan Ambassador Peter Ogego:
Watch Kenyan Ambassador Admits Obama Was Born In Kenya.

The Seventh Witness, James Orengo (the Kenyan Parliament Minister of Lands):
Watch Kenyan Parliament Minister Says Obama was Born in Kenya!!.

The Eighth Witness, Lucas Daniel Smith, has been banned from Free Republic, so I cut him out.
And finally, an outstanding video to watch,

(Revised) Kenyan Parliament Minister Says Obama was Born in Kenya!!

Case CLOSED!!!

Now ... think about it.

[Mr Rogers]

Hawaii will issue birth certificates for children born outside of Hawaii, as a number of other states will do. However, those certificates show the birth location as a foreign country.

[faucetman]

Repatriation means to return to the land of your citizenship, so if Obama returned at age 10 without repatriating, it meant he had lost his US citizenship while in Indonesia.

Words mean things. There is a QUESTION about Obama’s citizenship. I think he was born in Kenya, but there are only questions no proof. Unless of course you believe a birth certificate. I agree that IF Obama was born in Hawaii, the law is clear that, not being the age of majority, that his parents could not take away his “citizenship”. No foreign could take away his citizenship. IF HE WAS BORN IN THE USA. A BIG if. It is just unknown.

“I found the blog accurate in all the things that I have knowledge of.”

Hmmm...you mean like quoting from the 1797 translation of Vattel as if it was available during the 1787 convention?

It WAS available during the 1787 convention. In French and English.

[Yosemitest]

"However, those certificates show the birth location as a foreign country."

Not it the parents LIE, and "say" the child was born in Hawaii, but provide no proof, such as a Birth Certificate with a foot print on it.

[Kleon]

Interesting! Got link?

I don't recall Sven ever backing his theories up with actual sources.

[newzjunkey]

It's crackpot nonsense. They can't even arrive at a single legal theory among themselves. Is it two citizen parents, do both of those have to be only ever U.S. citizens, can the parents be naturalized, does location matter, etc., etc.

Once I discovered the first congress and president Washington added kids born abroad to U.S. citizen parents to be "Natural Born Citizens" themselves, the Vittal-focused argument was senseless.

Congress could clearly define what NBC was and Vittal conflates "native" and "natural born" anyway which only strengthens the view that NBC means someone not naturalized or never a citizen and that birth-right citizenship, a.k.a natural born citizenship, is whatever Congress says it is whether it's a version of Jus Soli, Jus Sanguinis or both.

[newzjunkey]

Spelling flub: Vittal = Vattel

[Bruce Campbells Chin]

The citizenship of every person in the Colonies at the time of the Revolution was determined by English law. Everyone knew that if you were born in one of the Colonies, you were a full citizen under English law. That's what everyone understood because that's what they were born into.

To assume that the people in the States who read the Constitution, and elected Delegates to ratify it, somehow understood that the entire definition of citizenship they had always known was being tossed in favor of the unmentioned (in the Constitution) interpretation of some Swiss legal theorist, is preposterous. There is absolutely no basis for inferring that the Citizens of the new United States understood that the basic English concept of birth citizenship had been changed in that document because it was not mentioned.

What some elites may have written in their own debates is irrelevant. What matters is the meaning of the words as commonly understood at the time by the citizens who approved the Constitution, because it is only from them that the validity of the Constitution flows. And any claim that de Vattel's citizenship theory was the one commonly understood by the average American at the time of ratification is simply preposterous.

[Josephat]

Permanent Resident Aliens are eligible for a SSN.

But they are not elegible to be President of the United States.

[Josephat]

Why was the SS# recycled? Supposedly it belonged to someone born in 1890, who died in the 70’s in Hawaii.
I do believe granny had something to do with the procurement of the SS#.

[Mr Rogers]

“It WAS available during the 1787 convention. In French and English. “

No. The 1797 translation was NOT available in 1787.

And in the French, Vattel NEVER used the phrase ‘natural born citizen’ - it being, after all, a phrase that didn’t exist when Vattel was writing in the 1750s. The closest equivalent would have been ‘natural born subject’ - and the French for that is & was “sujets naturel”.

[SvenMagnussen]

“Why was the SS# recycled? Supposedly it belonged to someone born in 1890, who died in the 70’s in Hawaii.”

SSNs are never recycled. Any SSN issued to a person born in 1890 has been retired and not used again. Retired SSNs are publicly available by viewing the SS Death Index.

If Obama was using a retired SSN, it could matched with the person it was originally issued to by viewing the SS Death Index. Obviously, the meme of Obama using the SSN of a person born in 1890 is a scam to provide cover for Obama legally obtaining a Connecticut SSN through his legal custodian located in Connecticut.

[edge919]

The citizenship of every person in the Colonies at the time of the Revolution was determined by English law. Everyone knew that if you were born in one of the Colonies, you were a full citizen under English law. That's what everyone understood because that's what they were born into.

Madison disagreed. He said the primary allegiance was to the colony of birth and that the allegiance to England was secondary. IOW, one was NOT a full citizen under English law, because the DoI dissolved that allegiance ... and under English law, citizenship requires perpetual allegiance.

I think there is a distinction which will invalidate his doctrine in this particular, a distinction between that primary allegiance which we owe to that particular society of which we are members, and the secondary allegiance we owe to the sovereign established by that society. This distinction will be illustrated by the doctrine established by the laws of Great Britain, which were the laws of this country before the revolution. The sovereign cannot make a citizen by any act of his own; he can confer denizenship, but this does not make a man either a citizen or subject. In order to make a citizen or subject, it is established, that allegiance shall first be due to the whole nation; it is necessary that a national act should pass to admit an individual member. In order to become a member of the British empire, where birth has now endowed the person with that privilege, he must be naturalized by an act of parliament.

Madison explained further:

I conceive that every person who owed this primary allegiance to the particular community in which he was born retained his right of birth, as the member of a new community; that he was consequently absolved from the secondary allegiance he had owed to the British sovereign:

I doubt that English law recognized its citizenship as secondary allegiance. It's because of this principle that Madison references that the founders who were born in and to members of the colonies considered themselves to be natural-born citizens, not natural-born subjects.

[edge919]

Rogers, you’re being pathetic again. It’s already been shown that the founders translated the French word “naturel” as “natural-born” as early as 1781. Why do you think that 1797 translation was changed?? It reflected the common interpretation PRIOR to 1797.

[El Sordo]

Dont’ get too wrapped up in Sven’s web.

He just makes this stuff up to see who he can get to beleive it.

It’s a running joke on FR.

[Mr Rogers]

“It’s already been shown that the founders translated the French word “naturel” as “natural-born” as early as 1781.”

No, they did not. They translated ‘sujets naturel’ as NBS.

[Bruce Campbells Chin]

First, Madison did not disagree. Subjective loyalties don't change citizenship. Further, from what you cited, Madison said this:

I conceive that every person who owed this primary allegiance to the particular community in which he was born retained his right of birth, as the member of a new community;

that he was consequently absolved from the secondary allegiance he had owed to the British sovereign:

Clearly, independence changed to whom loyalty and citizenship ran because the identity of the sovereign changed, but it did not change the rules that determined citizenship itself. Did people who were previously citizens of Massachusetts because they were born there somehow shift to being a non-citizen after independence? No. In fact, the Constitution doesn't define citizenship at all, and the only law in effect in the Colonies that could reasonably be assumed to define citizenship was the exact same pure birthright citizenship to which all the colonists had been subject under English law. It was all they knew.

But again what Madison or any other Framer may have held for an opinion isn't relevant. Power comes from the people, so it is their reasonable understanding of the normal meaning of those words, in the context of their time, that matters. You can't slip some ideosyncratic definition of citizenship into the Constitution silently, based on the unwritten opinions of some of the people involved in its drafting. the citizenship of their parents was suddenly an issue?