Posted on 02/10/2012 12:57:37 PM PST by Kartographer
I remember a late 50s/early 60s TV movie where the family with the fallout shelter was having to force their neighbors away so they could close the door...
Seems to me the best long-term solution is to possess a key skill that will be considered so valuable that others will leave you along in order to keep you around. Of course this only applied til the point where their empty bellies start to do the talking...
This is the problem with the thought process of urban survivalists.
So, you’ve stockpiled your food, and you of course also have enough weapons to protect yourself. Heck, you might have enough that when what is essentially an ARMY of people who don’t have food have assembled to come take you out, you can defend your “country”. Which means you are pretty powerful army.
Now, however, you are running out of food. And you have the power to take out an army against you. Will your family starve, now that you have run out of food?
Or, will you use all the force you have, force strong enough to repel an ARMY of invaders, to take the food of the guy next door? Yes, unless he is even more powerful. You won’t let your family die out of altruism.
But if he can fend you off, then HE was the more powerful, and if he runs out he’ll take you out.
Someone is going to have more weapons and power than you, unless you are the top dog. If you are the top dog, you will rule the world taking out those below you. If not, you will be taken out.
The only way this doesn’t come to a tragic end is if, at some point, you form a treaty with others, a kind of “nation”, where you all mutually defend yourselves. And then you need to mutually ensure your survival, meaning you need some way for people who run out of food to get from those who still have it, to keep factions from defecting and attacking.
Essentially, long-term survival will require the reconstruction of society. You need a government, you need people who are living well enough they aren’t motivated to lash out, and you need power distributed enough that no one person or a small group can take out the group.
Of course, you better pray that the military has prepared successfully, because you have NO CHANCE if the army is starving. It’s going to take you out, and you don’t have tanks, artillary, or close air support.
Wilderness survival is the only way individuals can make it. You find an out-of-the-way place, secure the perimeter, but mostly just STAY HIDDEN. Nobody knows where you are, or what goodies await them, and they can’t waste their time searching for you, not knowing there’s a reason to do so. They will go to where the groups of people are.
So, while I could build up my house to be energy independent, and put a stockpile in my basement, if I was serious about this stuff, my real survival gear would be in a nondescript cabin in the woods out in the middle of nowhere. My plan would be to have enough food and water to make it a month while I assessed whether things were collapsing, and then have gas to drive to my final destination.
Thanks for clueing me in that active duty military should be near the top of my list for people to be pre-emptively dealt with in such a post-collapse situation.
I think the ex-military premise is wrong. Military folks have the discipline,, team skills, and intellect to be just who I would want around me in such a situation. It will be the street thugs, who are already parasites that would try something like that. They won’t last long around ex-military types.
I’ve looked into making insulin from beef or pork pancreas, like they used to do. Surprisingly, it is not that difficult in terms of basic tech.
Not sure that that’s valuable enough, though.
For a laugh, look up the song “Black Powder and Alcohol” by Leslie Fish. She was concerned about the collapse of everything (two decades ago now) and wrote a song to teach people two basic skills- black powder and alcohol.
>>This also came up in Lucifer’s hammer,
I’m a huge Pournelle fan (Niven too), and believe me, he “gets” it on 2A. He used to write article for a Survivalist magazine in the 80s (I think I’m right on the timeframe, know I am right on the authorship). His blog is worth reading, I send him money like I send FR money.
He and Niven are working on Lucifer’s Anvil. I’m not sure what their timeframe is, but wouldn’t be surprised if it were late this year.
http://jerrypournelle.com/jerrypournelle.c/chaosmanor/
the most basic what we need and those mostly in the urban areas have no clue where to get it.
Water.
Ask those in the urban areas where their fresh water supply is for them to live on and where could they go to get water and food if need be and they are clueless.
Here we have animals, hunters, fish, lots of fish, know where various water supplies are and those not so close if something went bad here.
I think people who live in large urban areas will be in bad shape unless they have a Summer home or something like that to go to.
I live in a rural area and think there are enough farmers in the area to help us at least survive. I have things I could trade to people for food. Actually I have enough fruit trees in the yard to survive during the Summer, with just a little bit of other things. Even during the Winter I have pecans and satsumas.
There is a real possibility of roving bands of looters but I think they would for the most part be taken care of by the locals.
I disagree. In a post-collapse world, ex-military (there will be no more "active duty" since there would be no gov't anymore) would be a problem for the same reason that all the ex-KGB guys who now make up the Russian mafia in the ex-Soviet Union are a problem.
“Urban Survivalists” may be an oxymoron.
I know, we hate government, but government is the only thing preventing anarchy. If government collapses, we will need to create it again or few of us will survive.
He must be a democrat-- he thinks his "targets " won't be prepared to shoot him first.
NV gear has become wonderfully affordable!
The only way your neighborhood won’t end up turning on each other is if you create a defacto government within your enclave, and are able to enforce rules, feed your group, and keep those who run out from overcoming the group.
And all the time, the 5 guys with all the guns will be thinking — if we all get together, our families will survive, and we don’t have to defend the dead weight of the others.
I guess you will be OK if you are all equally armed, equally prepared, and never run out of food. Because as soon as you might be running out of food, it will be like the TV show “survivor”, with factions and plots, only for real, and for keeps.
Unless you all are have a very strong ethical and moral compass, and are willing to let your own families starve to death in the name of “society”.
And there ya go...
Highly intelligent and unbelievably clueless.
I’d be hard pressed if things really collapsed. I do however have the means to purify enough water to last me longer than I’d survive; and I know where there is water enough to purify.
What i don’t have is the means to hunt, fish, or otherwise provide food. My family carries our emergency supplies on our backs (that’s a joke about how being obese is a survival technique).
I still think the premise is wrong, but it may be too much of a generality to say that I would trust all ex-military. I understand that the services are facing a gang problem today, and those maggots would be well trained preditors, true enough.
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