Posted on 08/11/2011 1:48:27 PM PDT by Celerity
Thank you for taking the time to read my Vanity post.
A lot of people here, and in my face-to-face world, have mentioned that the mobs, riots and looting that is occuring around the world would take a different path here in the US, in areas where people are allowed to carry firearms, and use them in accordance with both laws and sensibility.
And it's the Sensibility portion of that I would like to discuss.
Everytime I measure and imagine (Simulations!) my response to violent flash mobs or rioters, I come up snake eyes. Here are two of such scenarios that I play out in my mind:
#1 I'm in my local convenience store, buying .. i dunno.. Porn mags and stale cigarettes and gasoline. Suddenly the front door swings open and the place is rushed by 10 or more teens who are screaming, destroying the store and running out with items.
#2 I'm dropping off some things at the post office to mail out. Say, I dunno.. Porn mags and stale cigarettes. An orchestrated attacks begins throughout my downtown area. 50, 100, 200 people start throwing rocks through windows, molotov cocktails, bricks, porn mags or stale cigarettes through store windows, setting fires or what-have-you.
We have heard around these parts how the outcome would be different were an armed populace involved. Well, "Here I am" . Now what ?
At what point in these events will it be both legal, and importantly: Prudent to present a firearm ? In the convenience store example, I have seen as few as 3 people cause so much ruckus that a knife was drawn and a kid was stabbed almost instantly. The kid didn't even know he was stabbed in the chaos. In the riot situation, Hiding or just leaving is the important decision, but are there scenarios that change that play ?
I see innocent people being hurt in riots all the time. But when is it time to draw a firearm and use it? I don't see the immediate danger to myself (Unless I'm the target of the protest, such as at a Union rally).
Help me connect some dots and make a correct decision.
Thanks !
-> Steve
“What’s with your obsession with porn mags and stale cigs?
JC”
It’s the new currency ! :D
LLS
So, In conclusion :
We have decided that is NOT right, correct, proper, polite, or even helpful to pull a gun in these situations, when clearly :
A) The flash mob in the convenience store is only interested in free stuff. If they come near you (Within personal defense ranges, 21 feet in my state but of course, results may vary) that a gun wouldn’t help the situation at all. (Note: If anyone, be it 1 or 100 people enter my area with knives or guns drawn, armed response is still prudent, as in all defensive situations)
B) If a riot breaks out near me, and I’m in the wrong place at the wrong time, an exit is appropriate. If that exit is blocked by violent or even violent-appearing people (Bricks, bombs, even outstretched hands in attack stance) then using a gun is appropriate. Standard defense principles apply.)
So to summarize: Using a gun in these situations is not advisable, and the two have nothing to do with each other. Riots taking place in the US will be the same or worse (I’ll go into that in the next paragraph) than it is abroad. The fact that we (The sensible and proper owners of firearms) will have NO (GOOD) IMPACT on the outcome of these scenarios. (I’ll get into that in the following paragraph)
* Katrina showed us that our evil armed populace is present. To this day, gangs of thugs openly practice tribal warfare in many of these areas. During the storm and the following year, NOLA was a warzone. The violence that will affect us comes AFTER the riots, and in “certain areas”. Areas that were hellholes before the riots began.
* If one of us chooses to use a firearm during a riot or flash mob invasion, the media will be on it like flies. They will use terms such as “Tea Party Terrorists” “Violent Right-Wing extremists” and “Armed Lunatics”. This is a terrible result.
Thanks for the open discussion ! Have a great day, a great weekend, and God Bless !
... Nor will the perp show up in court, slurring his speech and being pushed in a wheelchair.
If one bullet is good, then 3 or more is better.
“...if this theoretical woman in an alley with a rapist pulls her gun and the perp calls her bluff... she will most likely be beaten, raped and killed...”
The rapist was most likely going to do that anyway so she loses nothing by bluffing. On the other hand, if the perp does not call her bluff, she will most likely not be beaten, raped and killed. She will survive that particular encounter.
I admitted earlier that it would be better if she shot him, but if she doesn’t have it in her to shoot someone, why should she not at least try to bluff her way out?
Interestingly, it is against the constitution for the fe[d]ral government to infringe on the right of the people to keep and bear arms, period.
Aye. However, the federal government DOES infringe on the second amendment rights of law-abiding citizes. So when I need to go to the post office I park at city hall and walk down the street.
If I decided to park in the PO's parking lot, how would someone know that I might have a firearm in the truck? I've got a few bumper stickers (NRA, GOA, etc) on it. I know that local LEO's wouldn't bother me, but if some federal jackboot happened to drive in while I'm parked there, who knows what might go down.
I'd like to test this stupid law at some point, but I'm not in the financial position to do so - at the moment.
Sorry for the off topic post...
Once the situation has broken out, I couldn’t agree more with the tactics described in post 91, and *would* be in the situation described in post 92, where my sole vehicle *is* my means of survival. As in Old West days, I see at an instinctual level the loss of transportation as life threatening to me.
If you’re willing to kill me for what’s mine, you’re willing to die for it, too. I don’t care if it’s one red cent, it’s mine. Since that’s all I’m likely to have anyhow, you’re likely to attack me in a fit of pique, so I might as well try shooting first.
I mean sitting here safely in my living room, it’s easy to speculate about throwing down the few dollars I might have, if only that satisfies the attacker(s). But compliance with riot dynamics only affirms the mob’s tactics, so I can’t see a few sheckels buying appeasement when what they want is the victim’s abasement.
That said, I’m not about to kill or die over someone else’s property, possibly not over a stranger’s life either if it means I initiate the shooting. Justified or not, I would always be asking myself if I acted too hastily. Life would never be the same. It’s tough enough without the what-ifs. No calling back that bullet once it leaves the barrel.
If you are the store clerk the least dangerous option with the most chance of success might be the riot control size cans of pepper spray .
These can purchased at police supply houses or you can buy the 1lbs sized cans of bear guard pepper spray. Used inside a enclosed structure they are a area denial weapon however unless you are correctly wearing a working gas mask you also will be effected.
Possibly the use of extremely large doses of pepper gas . from fire extinguisher sized aerosol containers plus fogger type containers for use in enclosed shops .
Of course you will need to wear a gas mask but at least you will be breathing a hell of a lot better than the hoodlums. This tactic combined with the classic wood shampoo can be useful against flash mobs.
riot control agents like pepper spray are non lethal & when applied in massive amounts can be very unpleasant.
I find that tactics shouldn’t be decided before the actions begin. Whats the saying ? - the plan Stops the moment the bullets fly ?
That's one of Murphy's Laws of Combat -- no plan survives contact with the enemy.
But if you don't have a plan -- you've got nothing to deviate from.
I would say this is sage advise. I was taught 1) always keep your wits...non of this emotional bs. 2) always know your exit routes 3) always be prepared to either defend (I.e. kill) or retreat.
Unfortunately I wasn’t as good at passing these lessons on...
No need for that. Just don't walk back into the store after chasing the others out, rearm yourself, and shoot to death the one laying unconcious on the floor.
Don't live in Texas do you? In Texas, and other enlightened states, you can used deadly force to protect property in many cases. And if you justifiably, under the law, shoot someone, the case will be taken to the grand jury, which very likely will return a "No Bill". In fact the DA will take it the GJ to get that "No Bill" which protects you from further action, and even helps with any civil case that might arise from your actions.
I don't think the Korean shop owners who stood on the roofs of their buildings during the Rodney King riots were ever prosecuted, for using deadly force to protect their businesses.
Bottom line, know the law in your state. Act within it if possible, otherwise use your best judgement. Your stuff can be replaced but not your life or health or those of your family and friends.
Don't live in Texas do you? In Texas, and other enlightened states, you can used deadly force to protect property in many cases. And if you justifiably, under the law, shoot someone, the case will be taken to the grand jury, which very likely will return a "No Bill". In fact the DA will take it the GJ to get that "No Bill" which protects you from further action, and even helps with any civil case that might arise from your actions.
I don't think the Korean shop owners who stood on the roofs of their buildings during the Rodney King riots were ever prosecuted, for using deadly force to protect their businesses.
Bottom line, know the law in your state. Act within it if possible, otherwise use your best judgement. Your stuff can be replaced but not your life or health or those of your family and friends.
It do in Texas. Deadly force may be used to prevent Arson at any time, but also to prevent criminal mischief during the nighttime. Also theft during the nighttime. Most of this stuff seems to occur during the nighttime. So...
You're quite likely to need to at least show a weapon to get out there.
Especially if you are of a different ethnicity than the rioters.
Sure, you should get out of there, if you can, by stealth, but often that's not going to be possible.
It varies by state. In Texas use of deadly force is specifically permitted to stop someone from committing arson. If they are marching down the street with Molotov cocktails, I'm sure that's plenty of evidence of intent to commit arson, if they've lit the wick, then it's definitely time to take 'em out, before they can throw it. But it's a job for a rifle, not a handgun, although in a pinch... you use what you've got.
It’s a mob, if they are armed, they’ve already got their weapons out and are using them. Time to bring out the “reach out and touch someone” stuff.
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