When Atheists Attack (Each Other)

Evolution News and Views ^ | April 28 2011 | Davld Klinghoffer

[Matchett-PI]

"Ezekiel 36:25-27... I think you missed the part "theology for Jew who believed in the Torah." Eze is not the Torah."

The "Jew who believed in the Torah" is also the Jew who believes in the complete Old Testament.

Inconvenient, isn't it.

[kosta50]

The fact that you restate your assertion still fails to demonstrate its alleged truth

Hardly mine, but I do understand why a Chritsian would be in dneial. From Jewish Encyclopedia

Targum to Zech. xiv. 9 and Ob. 21; "Malkut Shaddai " Reign or sovereignty of God as contrasted with the kingdom of the worldly powers. The hope that God will be King over all the earth, when all idolatry will be banished, is expressed in prophecy and song (Ex. xv. 18; Zech. xiv. 9; Isa. xxiv. 23, Iii. 7; Micah iv. 7; Ps. xxix. 10), and with special emphasis in the later Psalms (xciii.-xcix.). God's Kingdom is spoken of in Ps. xxii. 29 (A. V. 28), ciii. 19, cxlv. 11-13; Ob. 21; Dan. iii. 33 (A. V. iv. 3); Tobit, xiii. 1; Sibyllines, iii. 47-48, 767; Psalms of Solomon, xvii. 3; Wisdom, x. 10; Assumptio Mosis, x. 1; Song of the Three Holy Children, 33; Enoch, lxxxiv....The Kingdom of God, however, in order to be established on earth, requires recognition by man; that is, to use the Hasidæan phrase borrowed from Babylonia or Persia, man must "take upon himself the yoke of the Kingdom of God"

[kosta50]

So you are admitting that Peter used the words "born again" in verse 23 even though you assert a different meaning for "ἀναγεννάω" in verse 3.

It means regenerated in a figurative sense, which is quite different from John 3.

Yet your argument avers that John is made up

That the alleged conversation with Nicodemus was, yes.

"living word of God"(John's concept)

Peter's living and enduring word is not the Logos of John; the "word" in 1 Peter 1:23 is never capitalized Or do you not understand the fiference?):

"the living and enduring word of God. " (NIV)

The author means literally utterances of God.

And then you conclude with the astonishing conclusion

Astonishing, really?

Final question if the Greek words presented up to now do not communicate "born again" or "reborn" what Greek words do?

Change of mind.

[kosta50]

Romans 8:9-11 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit

Really? So, you have no body?

For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost

No wonder the Jewish Encyclopedia says Paul was no Hebrew scholar. You may want to look up what the Jewish Encyclopedia (with appropriate references to the Bible) says about the Kingdom of God. You may only then grasp the extent of Pauline innovations he dished out on his own accord to unsuspecting Greeks.

1 Cor. 4:20-1 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. ..

Wow, I wonder where he got that one from!

Reign or sovereignty of God as contrasted with the kingdom of the worldly powers. The hope that God will be King over all the earth, when all idolatry will be banished...When, however, the trend of events led early Christianity to make a decided disavowal of all political expectations antagonistic to Rome, the conception of the Kingdom of God was made an entirely spiritual one, and was identified with the "'olam ha-ba" (= "the world to come"), the spiritual life, in which "there is no eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the holy spirit" (Rom. xiv. 17, Greek; comp. John xviii. 36). Rab speaks of it in the same way: "In the world to come there is neither eating, nor drinking, nor procreation, nor strife; but the righteous sit encrowned and enjoy the splendor of the Shekinah" (Ber. 17a)

In other words taken from the Jews and changed.

[kosta50]

The "Jew who believed in the Torah" is also the Jew who believes in the complete Old Testament

The Torah takes precedence. Not all scriptures is equal in Judaism.

Inconvenient, isn't it?

[boatbums]

We forgive, and cannot forget; but when God forgives sin, he remembers it no more.

Amen! How merciful, how gracious, how loving is our Lord that when he forgives us, he removes that sin from us as far as the east is from the west! This also makes me think that when we face him at our judgment, it will not be our sins that we are judged upon but what we have or haven't done for his glory. Unlike some religions who believe we will be weighed in the balance with all our sins on one side and our good deeds on another and the result determines whether we spend eternity in heaven or hell, those who have fled to the cross for grace and forgiveness will not be judged for our sins because they have been paid in full and we will stand before Almighty God clothed in the righteousness of Christ. Praise his holy name!

[Matchett-PI]

"The Torah takes precedence. Not all scriptures is equal in Judaism. Inconvenient, isn't it?"

Sounds to me as if you spend a lot of time reading stuff by a goof-ball who calls himself, "Prof. Mordochai ben-Tziyyon, Universitah Ha'ivrit, Y'rushalayim"

[AndrewC]

Hardly mine, but I do understand why a Chritsian would be in dneial. From

Well, despite your finally posting a source, your source still does not support your contention that "Kingdom of God" is synonymous with Israel. You stopped short of "Accordingly, says the Midrash (Cant. R. ii. 12), "when the Kingdom of Rome has ripened enough to be destroyed, the Kingdom of God will appear."

Israel had been around for a few centuries before the "Kingdom of Rome"(king of Rome?).

[AndrewC]

Peter's living and enduring word is not the Logos of John; the "word" in 1 Peter 1:23 is never capitalized Or do you not understand the fiference?):

I certainly know the difference between "Λ" and "λ" and "Θ" and "θ" and "Ε" and "ε".

Jhn 1:1 Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος

1Pe 1:23 ἀναγεγεννημένοι οὐκ ἐκ σπορᾶς φθαρτῆς ἀλλὰ ἀφθάρτου διὰ λόγου ζῶντος θεοῦ καὶ μένοντος εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα

Change of mind.

That looks Greek to me.

[Matchett-PI]

"In other words taken from the Jews and changed."

Not in the least. Get up to speed and aquaint yourself with The Semitic Totality Concept.

[AndrewC]

Really? So, you have no body?

Peter had you pegged millenia ago.

2Pe 3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

[Diamond]

Don't you think Jesus would have saved everyone the trouble if he had appeared before the skeptical Sanhedrin and Pilate? Think of all the blood and guts and horrors he would have prevented that followed if he convinced his enemies that he was God.

And if even the skeptical Sanhedrin and/or Pilate had recorded something like that happening you wouldn't believe it either, now, would you.

Cordially,

[Diamond]

So is assuming that he was.

Not an unreasonable supposition, assuming that Jesus existed, and had disciples who were with in him for a period of several years.

But I'm not the one making a claim that the whole conversation was just made up, and whoever wrote it wasn't even there. You are not being agnostic enough on this point. How could you possibly be in a position to know such a thing?

Cordially,

[kosta50]

Kingdom of God - Israel. 1) The land that G-d promised to Abraham and his descendants. 2) The northern kingdom that was home to the "ten lost tribes." 3) Alternate name for Jacob. 4) A country in the Middle East located in the ancient homeland that has a predominantly Jewish population and government.

Are you sitll in denial?

[kosta50]

I certainly know the difference between "Λ" and "λ" and "Θ" and "θ" and "Ε" and "ε".

I was tlaking about English trnalsaitons. Original Greek manuscirptus were all in capitals. Try looking at the English translation 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (NIV) 1 Peter 1:23 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. (NIV)

Are you sitll in denial?

[kosta50]

...sorry, forgot formatting, spelcheck

I certainly know the difference between "Λ" and "λ" and "Θ" and "θ" and "Ε" and "ε".

I was talking about English translations. Original Greek manuscripts were all in capitals. Try looking at the English translations:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (NIV)

1 Peter 1:23 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. (NIV)

Are you still in denial?

[kosta50]

Get up to speed and aquaint yourself with The Semitic Totality Concept.

I am, I read Semitic sources.

[AndrewC]

Are you sitll in denial?

You are the denier. This whole discussion is not about an English translation. It is about a Greek one. So don't try to obfuscate. To attempt to attribute to Peter what the English translator determined is a foolish attempt at distraction. And your reposting of the verse, highlights the fact that rebirth is the center of discussion since it talks about seed.

[kosta50]

And if even the skeptical Sanhedrin and/or Pilate had recorded something like that happening you wouldn't believe it either, now, would you

That would have made a great deal of difference.

[boatbums]

The other problem, besides Nic's off the wall response, is that the term "kingdom of God" in Judaism means simply Israel! Christians changed this to mean something else. So, as a Jew to a Jew, assuming this conversation ever took place, Jesus was telling Nicodemus that one must be born from above, that is from the water the spirit if he is to enter Israel! Clearly none of this makes any sense if we assume he was talking to Nicodemus in any language.

If any Jew ever thought the word "Israel" meant the kingdom of God, he must have missed where God first used that name. It was recorded in Genesis 32:37-28:

And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

The word Israel has always meant Prince of God. As far as assuming Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born of the Spirit to enter Israel is what makes no sense.