Posted on 05/01/2011 7:24:18 AM PDT by Ethan Clive Osgoode
And as I’ve pointed out - the question is fundamentally flawed to begin with. Salvation in an INDIVIDUAL response - not extended entire tribes. As you point out ampu- it is not the decisive logical question he likes to think of it as.
By golly, you have described "our" very own fundie atheists to a tee! Expect to be cursed up one side and down the other for doing so. It STILL needed to be said. Thanks.
He also tolerated divorce and polygamy, according to Jesus.
Abraham had Him tolerating a very high percentage of homosexuality in Sodom and Gomorrah. In the ante-diluvian world God tolerated quite a bit until the buzzer sounded for the end of the game.
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Who knows, Kosta, He might still zap you.
All that being said, I suppose in it, you might discern the difference between a God and a human being. He is the one who commands humans to respect the rights of other humans as He spells out those rights.
You and James, however, have no logical basis for believing in the life for even yourself, much less anyone else.
Who?
Salvation is on an individual basis - you try to force it into a blanket act.
Christianity teaches that God predestined those who will be elect (saved) before the foundation of the world. Nothing you do, say, believe or think can change that. Or does God change his mind?
Again - your logic is based upon a flawed premise
JCB, notice your premise is always flawed and theirs is always correct. Because they believe so! And they are absolutely certain about the uncertain. Neat, huh? :)
If you demand an answer - then you must accept what the scripture states - not your invalid atheist construct.
Sounds like spiritual extortion to me.
As the verses I cited above show - your assertion that the 'precondition to faith' is ONLY your definition is not valid according bible...It is common to try to misdirect responsibility for your adopted dogma to other subjects... My assumptions are firm - your assumptions on this - evidenced by your flawed question - are what you are getting carried away about.
You see, JCB, their evidence is like this: I am right and you are wrong. Your premises are flawed and mine are justified. You thinking is invalid and mine is true. Are you convinced now? Intellectual giants.
You thinking=Your thinking
It can't be reduced to a yes or no answer, and so far the answers you have been given, you have rejected because they don't fit in with your pre-established paradigm and don't give you adequate reason to continue rejecting God.
God knows the heart. He will judge justly.
There is no salvation without Christ. Whether those who have never heard have the opportunity to receive Christ when confronted with Him is unknown.
It could well be that when they see Christ, they will recognize Him as the one they have served, albeit in ignorance and say, *So it was YOU all along*.
But that's just an opinion.
That said, God HAS given enough revelation of Himself to the world that no man is without excuse, whether they specifically ever heard the name of Jesus or not.
Ante-diluvian? How about slavery being regulated in the Torah, as is killing your own children for disobedience?
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Who knows, Kosta, He might still zap you
And maybe Zeus will zap you. :)
He is the one who commands humans to respect the rights of other humans as He spells out those rights.
By ordering genocides of human infants? There are no human rights as we understand them in the Bible.
You and James, however, have no logical basis for believing in the life for even yourself, much less anyone else
No, xzins, you have no logical basis for being certain in the uncertain.
JCB seems to think that by reducing it to a yes or no, he’s got us in a gotcha position; damned if we do and damned if we don’t.
And if we don’t play his game, and do give him the best answer possible, he does the gotcha because we didn’t give a yes or no.
No matter what answer he receives, he will continue to use it to justify his rejection of God because he has predetermined that no answer is adequate enough for him to put his faith in Christ.
You replies indicate you are very hung up with the muzzies/koran, obsessed like, so perhaps you are studying to be one or you’re catholic. What’s in the heart comes out the mouth.
Now about the 5 year old - must be tough to read they know more than you meanwhile you laughed at the thought. But atheist/agnostics are not known for having a good grasp on anything - not even themselves because they deceive themselves and don’t even know it.
I am correct. You believe in something that has no apparent, logical basis. And these things you disbelieve in for no certain reason: You deride slavery, but you have no basis to condemn it or praise it. You are indignant at genocide, but you have nothing that makes sense in arguing for it or against it.
You are a mass of contradition, because you appear to be acting on the moment, the feel of it, the social approval of it...something.
I, on the other hand, can point to a historic document revealing my beliefs, and those beliefs have shaped our society and its highest ideals. (Which you try to cling to.)
Slavery regulated in the Torah because it, like your disbelief, was tolerated until God chose to call the end game. (Divorce also was tolerated in the OT, as Jesus explained regarding Moses’ “bill of divorcement.”)
Try Hebrews 11
Christianity teaches that God predestined those who will be elect (saved) before the foundation of the world. Nothing you do, say, believe or think can change that. Or does God change his mind?
Cite the passage correctly kosta - to do otherwise is not intellectually honest
Ro 8:29* For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
JCB, notice your premise is always flawed and theirs is always correct. Because they believe so! And they are absolutely certain about the uncertain. Neat, huh? :)
And when atheists do the same it is OK. Problem is kosta the premise IS flawed as described. What is glaringly ABSENT is the recognition on your part that the question is flawed.
Sounds like spiritual extortion to me.
If there is no God, what is there to 'extort' kosta - you just turn to worm food. But is there is a God - he shouldn't be so readily dismissed with faulty arguments.
You see, JCB, their evidence is like this: I am right and you are wrong. Your premises are flawed and mine are justified. You thinking is invalid and mine is true. Are you convinced now? Intellectual giants.
Unfortunately kosta - you haven't shown anything on your part.
And you have been around on the RF to know that that blanket statement is a total fallacy.
According to you, then, Catholicism then teaches that men are predestined to be saved, just like Calvinism does. Or are you saying that Catholicism, which teaches free will, isn't Christianity.
It doesn't matter to them if the question is fundamentally flawed - salvation is always an individual matter - not an entire 'tribe' units. Their emphasis on repeating the same question - even when shown to be flawed - doesn't support their position well (nor all their back slapping). shows that the skeptic is not an honest skeptic.
No matter what answer he receives, he will continue to use it to justify his rejection of God because he has predetermined that no answer is adequate enough for him to put his faith in Christ.
Indeed, invalidly structured questions - to which they don't have the answer to either.
Looks like Kosta is looking for loopholes - since his application for fire insurance+rider was rejected! LOL!!
JCB, have you stopped beating your spouse? Yes or no? Simple question.
this latest round shows that the atheists have a false impression that Christians would be troubled by those who many not have heard about Jesus being allowed into heaven. Their questions are simplistic misrepresentations or questions that have been answered, perhaps not to atheist satisfaction, but they’ve been answered. Their ‘satisfaction’ is the ultimate arberter of truth and the goal posts move with great regularity.
Nobody but the atheists are troubled that people who never heard of Jesus HERE ON EARTH, might make into heaven.
I’d be tickled that some of them have responded to the truth that was revealed to them and they were saved as a result.
And that still is totally irrelevant to each individual and their answering to God.
The real issue is that the atheists on FR have heard of Jesus and have been presented with the plan of salvation. What are they going to do with that knowledge. That is ALL they have to worry about.
I didn't look at that quite like that before. Indeed.
So, pray tell, how did ANY society survive long enough to eventually get the point that they must "look out for each other" and not kill or be killed? You contend that this "golden rule" required millenia to be learned, so how could any non-golden rule society continue past their own lifespans - if they were lucky?
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