Posted on 04/16/2011 4:30:48 AM PDT by Jacquerie
The state governments were "subordinately useful" because ALL governments are supposed to be subordinately useful - in subordination to the sovereign people. The use of ill-defined terms is usually indicative of the sort of sloppy thinking that tends towards centrality in federalism. I've long noticed that, by "states", federalists can mean 'state governments', 'state territories', or 'people of a state' according to immediate argumentative need. "States" are 'the People' when ratifying the Constitution, but are not 'People' when it is, in short order, necessary to distinguish the states from the central entity which is now also/rather/instead/sometimes 'the People'. To believe that the adoption of the new constitution through the states is a genuine political expression of the People but that the same arrangement had previously thwarted the People's will is fatally contradictory. Either "the People" work through state governments, thereby both legitimizing the Constitution AND validating the system under the Articles, or else do not, which would both invalidate the old Confederation AND delegitimize the Constitution. The argument is self-eliminating.
Hamilton never qualified for aristocracy. He was just some bastard vagabond that blundered into a revolution. His highest aspiration to be an oligarch, the philosophical opposite of the aristocrat.
Ugh. Should be "His highest aspiration was to be an oligarch".
The Constitution was ratified by the States. You know...the States.
That’s not the point Madison is making. It’s very clear what he was saying. He was saying that the new national government would be supreme in every significant and feasible way. He was saying it was “inexpedient” to try to eliminate state governments altogether, but it was no matter—they could leave the states with trifling duties. They would basically be subordinat administrators. And look around—that’s exactly what they are.
Hamilton was also Washington’s favorite—probably because Hamilton fought in the Revolution, whereas most of the other framers did not.
Thanks for the ping!
But the point I'm making is answered in asking "subordinate to what or whom?"
You nailed it.
You also nailed it again on your profile when you stated:
I believe the 17th Amendment is the primary reason our government is out of control.
Madison was saying the states would be subordinate to the national government. This was all well understood at the time.
As for the lower chamber the only mildly contentious point was the length of the Congressmen’s terms. The primary reason against one year terms was difficulty of travel. Otherwise, one year terms were heavily favored.
I bring this up because not only was a popularly elected Senate never discussed, but to give them six years isolation from the people was anathema to republican government.
We have paid the price.
For Repeal The 17th, are you familiar with the history and events surrounding the Amendment? I am not. If you are, I would enjoy reading it.
There is plenty to read on the topic.
It was part of the wave of “progressive” ideas of the time.
In the smallest nutshell, a crisis was defined and a solution was proposed.
Graft and corruption associated with the appointment of some senators as well as dealing with was seen as enough reason to forfeit state sovereignty.
...as well as dealing with ...
should read
as well as dealing with extended vacant seats...
I love to throw the dice in Las Vegas. Over the years I stand a little over even because of some lucky rolls - - - “Hard Ten on the Hop” has brought in hundreds to save some nights.
Black 8 on the roulette wheel has paid well.
But I will never bet on another Constitutional Convention. The odds of a payoff are low, and the odds on losing everything are too great. Moreover, because of today’s political climate and the lack of education among voters, I would consider a fix to be in - - with some guys with crooked noses ready to collect the spoils.
But, if you believe that a new Constitutional Convention would being about a better government, you may find comfort that Disneyland is still open, complete with Fantasyland.
We’re a God-made land and our Constitution is proof.
Thanks for the posting.
Excellent commentary and thoughtful.
I believe that Madison would be shocked and Hamilton stunned to see the size and scope of government. Hamilton is unfairly maligned today.
Too many forget that unity was critical to our success. By 1820 we were still barely a country and very susceptible to outside forces. The Monroe Doctrine was enforced not by Americans, but by the British Navy.
Obviously we’re too far over to one side, but we cannot imagine that our country would last if we had 50 utterly sovereign states. We need a reduction in federal power and control, not the destruction of it. A return to the Constitutional bounds is a sufficient dose, but not more.
Give me a break...your well tought out comments are precisely why we’re $14 TRILLION in debt, with $106 TRILLION in UNFUNDED promises made by that wonderful organization you are so afraid to change using the very Constitution you purport to support.
I suspect Jefferson, Mason and others would not take to kindly about your “fear” of a very constitutional process called a Constitutional Convention. Or do you not support the Constitution afterall. Or were the Founder just a bunch of dummies for putting that darned ole’ Constitutional Convention in there in the first place.
Like I said, give me a break. Keep supporting the status quo and when your children or grandchildren are on breadlines, do say you weren’t warned.
Can you list for me precisely what those “Constitutional Bounds” are and how you believe they can “returned” and bound by their chains as Jefferson suggested?
You can say nonsense all you want, but it's fantasy on your part. What do you think a Harvard professor might have had in mind in 1869 when wrote, "It is as if I am no longer living in the country in which I was born"?
ML/NJ
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