Posted on 10/12/2010 10:42:48 AM PDT by Bridgetteb
Looking Back at History Natural Born Citizen Discussions in the Late 1800′s
The definition of Natural Born Citizen and the presidential eligibility issue were researched in the late 1800's. Multiple newspaper articles are presented to show how constitutionalists and scholars in the 19th century addressed the issues by responding to citizen's questions. Copies of articles are shown.
The first article below asks: If a person with American parents is born in a foreign country would he be eligible to the presidency? Note the answer states parents not the singular word parent.
May 27, 1888 Is a Citizen Born Abroad Eligible to Be President?
continued ...
(Excerpt) Read more at wtpotus.wordpress.com ...
Excellent catch. Pretty much what we’ve been saying all along and what the Supremes have been evading.
I know a lot of people that would have a severe problem with that. ;0)
Futhermore, such children must be born in the United States for natural-born status without a doubt. See dicta from Minor v. Happersett for relevant information speaking directly to this.
It's really not that murky or difficult, unless one wants it to be for whatever reason, usually cheap labor on the right and transnational poppycock on the left.
Poppycock. ;0)
Well then I guess that if the Brooklyn Daily Eagle said it then the matter must be settled.
Believing that the legislature can change the Constitution by passing a law is what’s poppycock.
Poppycock. The Sequel. ;0)
When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdoms dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.s children.http://fightthesmears.com/articles/5/birthcertificate.html
Factcheck.org goes on to say this about Obama Sr., Jr. and the British Nationality Act of 1948:
In other words, at the time of his birth, Barack Obama Jr. was both a U.S. citizen (by virtue of being born in Hawaii) and a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (or the UKC) by virtue of being born to a father who was a citizen of the UKC.http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/does_barack_obama_have_kenyan_citizenship.html
Even the modern day State Department rules discusses the problems associated with dual citizenship:
7 FAM 081: U.S. Policy on Dual Nationality:http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86563.pdf(e)While recognizing the existence of dual nationality, the U.S. Government does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Dual nationality may hamper efforts by the U.S. Government to provide diplomatic and consular protection to individuals overseas. When a U.S. citizen is in the other country of their dual nationality, that country has a predominant claim on the person.
...
the U.S. Supreme Court has stated that dual nationality is a "status long recognized in the law" and that "a person may have and exercise rights of nationality in two countries and be subject to the responsibilities of both." See Kawakita v. United States, 343 U.S. 717 (1952).
So, back to the question: "HOW CAN A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN'S STATUS BE "GOVERNED" BY GREAT BRITAIN?"
It can't. Of course not. Yet, right there, on his campaign web site F.T.S., it's stated that a foreign government "governed" Barry from birth and the reason it did, was that Barry inherited that foreign citizenship by way of his foreign national father (no matter where he was born), a fact backed up by Factcheck.org. Assuming, of course, that Sr. was his legal father at birth.
How, then, could he possibly be a "Natural Born Citizen" of the U.S.?
Barry Soetoro, the divided citizen at birth!
Barack Obama a/k/a Barry Soetoro * | NOT Obama / Soetoro |
* This assumes HI birth, which is yet to be verified. A citizen of 2 countries at birth. |
Furthermore: Hawaii's Territorial Law, Chapter 57 - "VITAL STATISTICS, I", shown beginning pg 23 of 29, (the law in effect in 1961) allowed the parents (or grandparents or other relative) of baby's born anywhere in the world to be eligible to apply for a Hawaiian birth certificate. A mailed-in form (without mention of a hospital, doctor, or midwife) signed by one of his grandparents (who forged the parent signature(s)) would have been enough to set up a birth record and a birth certificate at the Dept of Health. The Dept of Health would (presumably) then have automatically sent the names of the parents, their address as given on the mailed-in form , the gender of the child, and the date of birth to the Honolulu Advertiser and Star-Bulletin. The address given for the parents in the newspaper announcements is actually, however, the August 1961 home address of Obamas maternal grandparents Stanley and Madelyn Dunham [6085 Kalanianaole Highway], and not the 1961 home address of Barack Obama, Sr. [625 11th Ave].).
Bottom line: Even IF (big IF) he was born in HI, he inherited his father's foreign citizenship as well, making him a US citizen by US law and a subject to the crown of her majesty the Queen of England by inheritance, birthright and England's law. He could not be considered a Natural Born Citizen as known by and as intended by the framers.
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What follows, is a bit of information with regards to the Constitutional term "Natural Born Citizen" (specifically) and NOT about the entire makeup, functions, origins and influences that made/make up our form of government, a Constitutional Republic. Clearly, the framers relied upon many different sources to create our new form of government.
Who, or "what" constituted a natural born citizen was well known to the framers. Jay would not have made such a suggestion to the others (Washington & the rest of those in attendance at the Constitutional Convention) unless there was a clear understanding of what that term meant. The definition comes from a source that not only were the framers familiar with, but the founders (many who were both) as well. And yes, even though many could not speak French, most read French (except, notably, Washington who would defer to Jefferson when such interpretation was needed).
NBC in the Constitutional drafts:
June 18th, 1787 - Alexander Hamilton suggests that the requirement be added, as: "No person shall be eligible to the office of President of the United States unless he be now a Citizen of one of the States, or hereafter be born a Citizen of the United States." Works of Alexander Hamilton (page 407).
July 25, 1787 (~5 weeks later) - John Jay writes a letter to General Washington (president of the Constitutional Convention): "Permit me to hint, whether it would be wise and seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government; and to declare expressly that the Commander in Chief of the American army shall not be given to nor devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen." [the word born is underlined in Jay's letter which signifies the importance of allegiance from birth.]
http://rs6.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/hlaw:@field%28DOCID+@lit%28fr00379%29%29:
September 2nd, 1787 George Washington pens a letter to John Jay. The last line reads: "I thank you for the hints contained in your letter"
http://www.consource.org/index.asp?bid=582&fid=600&documentid=71483
September 4th, 1787 (~6 weeks after Jay's letter and just 2 days after Washington wrote back to Jay) - The "Natural Born Citizen" requirement is now found in their drafts. Madison's notes of the Convention
The proposal passed unanimously without debate.
Original French version of Vattel's Law of Nations:
Emer de Vattel, Le droit des gens, ou Principes de la loi naturelle, vol. 1 (of 2) [1758]
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From Chapter XIX, 212 (page 197 of 592) [Note: A ~22 MB PDF]: Title in French: "Des citoyens et naturels" To English: "Citizens and natural" French text (about citizens): "Les citoyens sont les membres de la societe civile : lies a cette societe par certains devoirs et soumis a son autorite, ils participent avec egalite a ses avantages." |
A detailed, historical, etymology of the term "Natural Born Citizen" can be found here: http://www.greschak.com/essays/natborn/index.htm
Prior to the Constitution |
I am much obliged by the kind present you have made us of your edition of Vattel, It came to us in good season, when the circumstances of a rising State make it necessary frequently to consult the law of nations. Accordingly, that copy which I kept (after depositing one in our own publick library here, and sending the other to the College of Massachusetts-Bay, as you directed) has been continually in the hands of the members of our Congress now sitting, who are much pleased with your notes and preface, and have entertained a high and just esteem for their author.
"This 1758 work by Swiss legal philosopher Emmerich de Vattel is of special importance to scholars of constitutional history and law, for it was read by many of the Founders of the United States of America, and informed their understanding of the principles of law which became established in the Constitution of 1787. Chitty's notes and the appended commentaries by Edward D. Ingraham, used in lectures at William and Mary College, provide a valuable perspective on Vattel's exposition from the viewpoint of American jurists who had adapted those principles to the American legal experience."
Vattel's Law of Nations, built upon "natural law - which has it's roots in ancient Greece, was influenced by Leibniz.
Even Blackstone affirmed the basis of natural law:
"This law of nature, being co-eval with mankind and dictated by God himself, is of course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times: no human laws are of any validity, if contrary to this; and such of them as are valid derive all their force, and all their authority, mediately or immediately, from this original (1979, 41). In this passage, Blackstone articulates the two claims that constitute the theoretical core of conceptual naturalism: 1) there can be no legally valid standards that conflict with the natural law; and 2) all valid laws derive what force and authority they have from the natural law."
Thomas Jefferson (for one example) had the 1758 version as well as a 1775 version in his own library:
Thomas Jefferson's Library: A Catalog with the Entries in His Own Order (under a section he titled "Ethics. Law of Nature and Nations."
In AUTOBIOGRAPHY by Thomas Jefferson, he states: "On the 1st of June 1779. I was appointed Governor of the Commonwealth and retired from the legislature. Being elected also one of the Visitors of Wm. & Mary college, a self-electing body, I effected, during my residence in Williamsburg that year, a change in the organization of that institution by abolishing the Grammar school, and the two professorships of Divinity & Oriental languages, and substituting a professorship of Law & Police, one of Anatomy Medicine and Chemistry, and one of Modern languages; and the charter confining us to six professorships, we added the law of Nature & Nations..." This was 8 years prior the the writing of the Constitution! [See the "Law of Nature & Nations" section of his personal library to get an idea of what he included in this curriculum in America's 1st law school].
Note: Vattel, is one of only 10 "footnotes" in Jefferson's Biography, from Yale.
Prior to Jay's famous letter to those in attendance at the Constitutional Convention, we see (one of many exchanges between the founders) a letter from Madison ("father" of the Constitution) to Jay:
"James Madison, as a member of the Continental Congress in 1780, drafted the instructions sent to John Jay, for negotiating a treaty with Spain, which quotes at length from The Law of Nations. Jay complained that this letter, which was probably read by the Spanish government, was not in code, and "Vattel's Law of Nations, which I found quoted in a letter from Congress, is prohibited here.[29]"
From: Life, Liberty, and The Pursuit of Happiness. How the Natural Law concept of G.W. Leibniz Inspired America's Founding Fathers.
The concepts of "natural law" and the phrase "Laws of Nature" (of which Law of Nations is built upon) are found within the Declaration of Independence itself:
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governedThose (& others) are clearly NOT derived from English law, but rather from natural law concepts (which can be found in Vattel's Law of Nations).
This accepted translation of 'naturel' in 1781, predates John Jay's 1787 letter to George Washington by 6 years. This 'naturels' means 'natural born' translation in 1781 was subsequently confirmed by the 1797 translation of the part of the relevant sentence and paragraph in Vattel's Law of Nation, Vol.1, Chapter 19, Section 212, that is, "natural-born Citizens, are those born in the country, to parents who are citizens". Thus when the founders and framers wrote the Constitution in 1787 they clearly knew what "natural born Citizen" meant when they upgraded the Citizenship requirement in Article II from simply being a "born Citizen" as proposed by Hamilton to that of being a "natural born Citizen" as recommended by Jay as a strong check against foreign influence on the persons in the future who would be President and Commander of the military. And that meaning was understood to be a person born in the country to parents who are Citizens of the country. Such a person has sole allegiance and unity of citizenship at birth to only the United States. That was the intent of the founders and framers for that legal term of art, natural born Citizen, in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 of the U.S. Constitution. This restriction on the type of Citizen who could be President was a national security issue to them back then and it is still a national security issue to us now. |
The Constitution |
The concepts of "natural law" continued in the Constitution:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect UnionAgain, those phrases are not from England's common law, but rather from natural law and even mention Vattel's book by name, "Law of Nations."...
Article 1. section 8, clause 10:
"To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations"
George Mason, In Convention, Richmond (Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution), Wednesday, June 18, 1788:
"We have it in our power to secure our liberties and happiness on the most unshaken, firm, and permanent basis. We can establish what government we please. But by that paper we are consolidating the United States into one great government, and trusting to constructive security. You will find no such thing in the English government. The common law of England is not the common law of these states."
Why natural law, Vattel vs English common law, Blackstone: "The English common law provided that an alien naturalized is to all intents and purposes a natural born subject. Co. Litt. 129 (quoted and cited in Rhodes, 27 F.Cass. at 790). With such recognition, a naturalized citizen would have been eligible to be President of the new Republic."
http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2009/08/law-of-nations-and-not-english-common.html
After the Constitution is ratified |
Founder and Historian David Ramsay Defines a Natural Born Citizen in 1789.
David Ramsay (April 2, 1749 to May 8, 1815) was an American physician, patriot, and historian from South Carolina and a delegate from that state to the Continental Congress in 1782-1783 and 1785-1786. He was the Acting President of the United States in Congress Assembled. He was one of the American Revolutions first major historians. A contemporary of Washington, Ramsay writes with the knowledge and insights one acquires only by being personally involved in the events of the Founding period.
Ramsay reaffirms the definition a Natural Born Citizen (born in country, to citizen parents (plural)) in 1789 A Dissertation on the Manners of Acquiring the Character and Privileges of a Citizen (1789)
The Naturalization Act of 1790, which states (in relevant part) "that the children of citizens [plural] of the United States that might be born beyond the sea, or out of the limits of the United States, should be considered as natural-born citizens"
Of course, the Act of 1790 was repealed by the Act of 1795 (which did NOT attempt to define or extend the definition for NBC). What the 1st Congress had tried to do in 1790 was to EXTEND the known definition (of born in country to citizen parentS) to those born outside of sovereign territory, to citizen parentS. Of course, they can't do that. Congress (by itself) doesn't have the Constitutional authority to define (or EXTEND) the Constitutional term "Natural Born Citizen." Only a SCOTUS decision on the intent of the framers, or an amendment to the Constitution can do that.
"THE VENUS, 12 U.S. (8 Cranch) 253, 289 (1814) (A case on citizenship and domicile. Marshall, C.J. concurring) (cites Vattel six (6) times by name, and "law of nations" ten (10) times.) SHANKS V. DUPONT, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830) (same definition without citing Vattel) |
The New Englander, Volume 3 (1845) states: "The expression citizen of the United States occurs in the clauses prescribing qualifications for Representatives, for Senators, and for President. In the latter, the term natural born citizen is used and excludes all persons owing allegiance by birth to foreign states."
Note: the "New Englander" was NOT a student law review. The first student law review appeared 30 years later, in 1875/76 at the Albany Law School..
A few of the more notible POTUS references to "law of nations" are:
John Bingham, "father" of the 14th Amendment, the abolitionist congressman from Ohio who prosecuted Lincoln's assassins, REAFFIRMED the definition known to the framers by saying this: commenting on Section 1992 said it means every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen. (Cong. Globe, 39th, 1st Sess., 1291 (1866))" |
SCOTUS, in an 1887 case cites Vattel a number of times and reitterates that his work was translated into English in 1760:
"Vattel in his Law of Nations, which was first printed at Neuchatel in 1758, and was translated into English and published in England in 1760" U S v. ARJONA, 120 U.S. 479 (1887)
It's interesting to note that (non binding) Senate Resolution 511, which attempted to proclaim that Sen. John McCain was a "Natural Born Citizen" because he was born to citizen parentS, even they referenced the (repealed) Naturalization Act of 1790: "Whereas such limitations would be inconsistent with the purpose and intent of the `natural born Citizen' clause of the Constitution of the United States, as evidenced by the First Congress's own statute defining the term `natural born Citizen'".
Obama, himself, was a signatory of that resolution knowing full well (no doubt) the requirement has always been about 2 citizen parents.
The point is that up until relatively recently, the SCOTUS, the Congress, Presidents and the country were well aquinted with the law of nations and Vattel's edition in particular. It is also that, with the exception of the repealed Act of 1790 which tried to EXTEND the definition, the meaning of the term "Natural Born Citizen" (of the U.S.) has ALWAYS been about being born within the sovereign territory or jurisdiction of the U.S. to 2 citizen parents (& therefore parents who do NOT owe allegiance to another, foreign, country and who often then pass that foreign citizenship & alligience owed on to their child - by birthright).
This compilation has been added to and improved with the help, hard work and comments of many FReepers (including, but not limited to: Spaulding, bushpilot1, Red Steel, BP2, El Gato) and many of the "eligibility" lawyers and/or their clients (including, but not limited to: Mario Apuzzo, Leo Donfrio)
And for good reason as Britain still held a lot of territory in which the feudal law of jus soli & perpetual allegiance was still in effect thus making many foreign born children aliens of their parents. Imagine giving birth in a British state & having a child that must get permission from Parliament at the coming of age in order to renounce the perpetual hold that govt has on the person.
The US adopted the combination of jus soli & jus sanguinis as it is defined in Vattel, Pufendorf, Locke, Grotius, Montesquieu, Aristotle, De Tocqueville, etc, etc going all the way back to original Republican govt of Rome. It was the original law of England until shortly after the Norman conquest when feudal law was put in place that took the sovereignty from the people & place it with the king.
Immigration and Naturalization Act of 1790 states that those Children born to American citizens( even outside of our borders) are Natural born . The founding fathers felt that loyalty to our nation was derived from the parents. The founding fathers DID NOT recogize JUS SOLI( BORN ON AMERICAN SOIL) as grounds for citizenship. Anchor babies have no right to citizenship as their parents have no allegiance to the U.S.
Immigration and Naturalization Act of 1790 states that those Children born to American citizens( even outside of our borders) are Natural born . The founding fathers felt that loyalty to our nation was derived from the parents. The founding fathers DID NOT recogize JUS SOLI( BORN ON AMERICAN SOIL) as grounds for citizenship. Anchor babies have no right to citizenship as their parents have no allegiance to the U.S.
George W.Bush appointed a second generation anchor baby: Alberto Gonzales to be the US chief law enforcement officer as Attorney General of the United States and he appointed a Muslim anchor baby from Afghanistan, Dr. Zalmay Khalilziad to be United States ambassador to the United Nations.
“To hold that the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution excludes from citizenship the children, born in the United States, of citizens or subjects of other countries would be to deny citizenship to thousands of persons of English, Scotch, Irish, German, or other European parentage who have always been considered and treated as citizens of the United States.” —Supreme Court of the United States, “US v Wong Kim Ark” (1898)
“It is an established maxim that birth is a criterion of allegiance. Birth, however, derives its force sometimes from place and sometimes from parentage; but in general place is the most certain criterion; it is what applies in the United States; it will, therefore, be unnecessary to examine any other.”—1789, Congressman James Madison, Founding Father, Primary author of the US Constitution and soon to become the 4th President of the United States.
The 14 th amendment did not address Natural born Citizenship as required by Article 2. The wording “Subject to the jurisdiction” refers to the allegiance of the parents. If a person born in the U.S. has parents that owe their allegiance to the U.S. , then they are citizens.
Still citing that edited & taken out of context quote you cut & pasted from DrConspiracy or one of the other left wing propaganda sites I see.
Are you male or female? If you are a male, you have a serious problem. ;0)
I’d say the problem is yours. You do understand the emoticon you’ve used repeatedly?
Still citing that edited & taken out of context quote you cut & pasted from DrConspiracy or one of the other left wing propaganda sites I see.
That is wrong. The act only addressed those born outside the borders.
Of course, he was correct. One however, does have to be a US Citizen. So this started the whole "born in Hawaii," deal. It is a brilliant smokescreen and has been tremendously successful. It night ... just might ... be true, too. But "Native Born" citizenship does not = "Natural Born Citizenship."
The entire GOP fell down on this point. Me? I blame George Bush. It was ultimately his responsibility to defend COTUS from fake POTUS candidates. Now, 2 years later, an ineligible candidate has (a) been certified to appear on the ballots of 50 states, (b) has won the popular vote, (c) has secured the vote of the Electoral College, (d) been sworn in by the SCOTUS (e) and sitteth on the throne whence he judges the living and the dead.
He is the sitting POTUS. He was ineligible to run for the office, but now occupies it.
What can we do about it? The amended Constitution says that a Federal Officer's bona fides can be ascertained by seeking a Writ of Quo Warranto, which can be sought ONLY in the Federal District Court of Washington, DC. Whatever the outcome of that case, it will be appealed. If (i.e. IF) the SCOTUS (now influenced by the staffs of 2 Marxist lesbians) finds him ineligible, they cannot remove him. That can only be done by Impeachment in the House, Conviction in the Senate, a finding of "incompetence" by the Congress, or by the unlikely event of resignation. I don't even want to think about the consequences of the SCOTUS finding him ELIGIBLE! That is possible, you know?
The application for a Writ of Quo Warranto has not yet been accepted, much less heard. In the meantime, there is no EFFECTIVE Program, Plan, or Leader to hold the POTUS in check while the legalities play out. We'll have the House. BFD. He'll have the Senate and the power and our economiuc decline will continue.
Needed: One State Legislature, 1 Governor, to keep Obama off any 2012 ballot in any state on the grounds of constitutional ineligibility. Let's hope that (a) we find a decent candidate, and (b) the scandal caused would damage the Clinton-Soros team enough to cause them to lose.
The endlessly interesting eligibility debates are in a certain sense, a waste of bloody time. We need to focus on exactly what it is the elected Republicans in the House intend to do with the power they will receive from the voters in 2010. As a freeper, I should know that. I read this and other sites every day. Why is it that I do not?
Everyday, I am bombarded with negative messages about Obama, and his administration. OK. I agree. Now what do WE do about it? Unless that question gets answered, I fear a Democrat POTUS again in 2012.
“The case of child born in the US where one parent is a non-citizen is not a gray border case, it is in the area of settled cases. Such a child may become a citizen by law, but is NOT a natural born citizen.”
You haven’t read the Constitution, have you?
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