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To: Old Teufel Hunden
No I'm not. The Declaration of Independence mentions the "Creator". It never mentions the God of Christianity. For some, that creator may be God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. For some it may be Allah.

If you want to play the Barack Hussein Obama game "We were once a Christian nation, but now we're not", fine. But don't go trying to tell me that the Founders looked at Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and Confuscism (etc.) the same way that looked at Christianity.

David Barton of Wallbuilders.com talks about it in his interview with Teddy James of the American Family Association:

"Jefferson, when you go by his actions, was absolutely pro-Christian his entire life. He started church services at the U. S. Capitol in 1800. By 1857, the largest church in the U.S. was the one he helped start. He also started church services in the War Department and the Treasury Department on Sundays. When we bought the Louisiana Purchase in 1804, there were several Christian schools in New Orleans. Many of them wrote the president asking if they would have to shut down since they now belonged to America. Jefferson wrote them back saying no, they would still get the patronage of the government to help run their Christian schools."

Regarding the use of the word "Creator":

"This is the Father of Jesus. Again, half these guys were ministry trained; 95% of the signers were what we would call evangelical Christians. Even though many people call Franklin and Jefferson deists, they do not fit the definition. A deist is one who believes in an impersonal God. Franklin is the one who called for daily prayer at the convention because he said God answered their prayers and they saw it during the Revolution.
The other thing these knot-heads miss is that sermons by the leading Christian theologians of the day used the exact same terms in their sermons. Just because today’s Christianity uses a different set of terms doesn’t mean those [old terms] were not Christian. In the case of George Washington, he used 84 different ways of describing God. He used terms such as Good Shepherd, Divine Disposer of Events and Divine Author of our blessed religion."
Link to Deism and the Declaration

You talk of the morals of the day in the founders time concerning homosexuality. However, during that time alchohol consumption was far more prevalent than it is nowadays.

Wow, comparing drinking alcoholic beverages with a sexual perversion. First of all, drinking alcohol is not a sin, getting drunk is.
"Despite what some Christians teach, there is no prohibition in God’s Word against drinking alcoholic beverages. It is not a sin to drink beer, or even whiskey. There is, however, a clear prohibition against getting drunk."
Link to the Bible on Drugs and Alcohol

Note in your link what George Washington said: "My manner of living is plain...a glass of wine and a bit of mutton."

"a" glass of wine (as in singular).

As for prostitution, the ancient Army's including Washingtons had many female prostitutes who followed the troops around. The only debate about them were the commanders worrying about the spread of venerial disease.

Cite your source. Being that the military did and still does try cases of adultery, how could they allow prostitution to occur? (Slate.com isn't a reliable source by the way)

The founders also were not able to outlaw slavery at the beginning of this country because many of the states would not have ratified the constitution. How much more immoral can you get than to treat another human being as your property?

Slavery had been around for 200 years prior to our Founding Fathers writing the Constitution. They were wise enough to say that God created all men equally with unalienable rights. They knew that eventually all men (not perverts) would have equal rights.
Link to Founding Fathers and slavery
Link to Washington and Jefferson on slavery

The morals of society have changed throughout history. For good and for bad. Jefferson believed homosexuality should be punished by the law, yet he lawfully owned slaves. He was a complicated and brilliant man to say the least.

Read the links; as shown, the majority of Founding Fathers either released their slaves, or didn't own any. They followed Scripture when it came to that and other sins. Admittedly, they like all men sinned. They however didn't legislate their sins, they did just the opposite.

In general I like to follow Jefferson's advice the best concerning vices. If it does not break my leg or pick my pocket, what does it bother to me. You are not going to convert too many more people to Christianity by pounding a bible in their face. You're just going to hurt their face.

Glenn Beck used that line when he mocked traditional marriage on O'Reilly by saying "Are they [homosexuals} coming to get us?" Note, he too wasn't aware of the stance the Founding Fathers (and especially the one he quoted) took on homosexuality.

Let's look at the effect that pounding your secular humanist "bible" in the faces of people has had on society in the past decades:

50 million unborn babies murdered in the womb in a 37 year period (in the US alone)
500,000 dead from the "Gay Disease" AIDS in the past two decades.
Millions of lives destroyed through drug abuse (alcohol does it as well; yeah, lets legalize drugs too).
Families destroyed through pornography. Etc. etc. etc.

Your "if it feels good do it" ideology does create quite a few victims OTH.

22 posted on 09/23/2010 9:38:57 AM PDT by aSeattleConservative
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To: aSeattleConservative

You are someone who cannot be talked to. I have told you previously I am against abortion and laid out why. Yet you pound me over the head as if I want abortion legal.

You can’t even accept the most basic of premises. All ancient armies had large camp followings. Wives, daughters and children along with women just swept up as refugees. They did washing, knitting, cooking and yes prostitution. If you want to read about it, read this history professor’s thesis:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08028/852748-298.stm

According to her, the only thing that kept prostitution down to a minimum in the Continental Army was not Congress’s puritanical morals, but Congress’s pay to soldiers. The pay was steady and better for the British Army, therefore they had more money to spend on prostitution. Which attracted more prostitutes.

You want to poo poo the Founders owning slaves, but they did. Jefferson released his upon his death. However, I was not speaking to the founders morals when talking about that, but societies. Especially in the south, but not limited to there slavery was a widespread practice among the citizens of the United States.

Would I like to live in a society where everyone had the highest of moral standards? Absolutely. But I would like to live in a world where peace breaks out everywhere. You know, John Lennon. All we are saying is give peace a chance. However, the realist in me understands that is not going to happen, just like everyone is not going to have the highest morals ever. We should strive for it, but be realistic enough to realize it is not going to happen. If you are a Christian, then you understand that your kingdom is not of this world anyways. You make it as good as you personally can while you’re here, but you should realize you are never going to change it permanently. This world is evil and sinful.

As for drinking, as you noted getting drunk is a sin. Look again at that link I sent you and see how much alcohol was consumed at that time. They were buzzed and drunk a lot. Denying that is denying reality. If you would like to deny reality. It’s up to you. You are just like the left then. Stick your head in the sand....


23 posted on 09/23/2010 11:03:33 AM PDT by Old Teufel Hunden
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