Posted on 09/07/2010 12:43:35 PM PDT by gjmerits
The Gettysburg speech was at once the shortest and the most famous oration in American history...the highest emotion reduced to a few poetical phrases. Lincoln himself never even remotely approached it. It is genuinely stupendous. But let us not forget that it is poetry, not logic; beauty, not sense. Think of the argument in it. Put it into the cold words of everyday. The doctrine is simply this: that the Union soldiers who died at Gettysburg sacrificed their lives to the cause of self-determination - that government of the people, by the people, for the people, should not perish from the earth. It is difficult to imagine anything more untrue. The Union soldiers in the battle actually fought against self-determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of their people to govern themselves.
(Excerpt) Read more at wolvesofliberty.com ...
And speaking for myself alone, I'm damned glad they moved down there. Enjoy.
Freedom needs to be awakened. It is your choice, and yours alone, to live under the watchful eye of big brother. I do not except tyranny, not from you, not from Obama, and not from Lincoln.
You may like the status qou, but you will never get me our my heirs to submit.
I am guessing NS spent his 30 yrs in the Navy around the Mobile area sometime in the 70’s. Prob experienced some of the fall out from the area racial tensions of the 60’s. Got hurt, then vowed to never return. According to him he hasn't returned for any length of time and does not care to experience the south any further. So diff "a stuck in the moment" experience there.
Close, N. S. Charleston S.C. 1980's.
I wonder what the average blue belly's reaction would have been if they were told 150 years from now, the most productive members of society would be so scrutinized and enslaved that every penny earned and invested would have to be accounted for and half his income confiscated by the Federal government every year and a portion given to the laziest to spend without accountability. Also, since the Union would win the war the South would be subjected to the same treatment after suffering through a dozen or more years of tyranny.
Racial tensions? So you're assuming I'm black? How very typical of the Southron mind-set.
You're completely wrong in so many ways. I spend most of my active dute elsewhere in the South. And I can honestly say that I don't have any bad memories about it. The area was OK. The people were nice. Nobody ever came up to me and cursed me for being a Yankee. I'm not a fan of Carolina style barbecue, but trying it didn't scar me or anything. All in all I have no complaints about the South. So sorry, no bad memories only good ones. But at the same time I can't think of any reason why I would ever want to move there or any reason to visit there, either.
I don't hate those who hate America, I just disdain their benefiting from the greatest nation on Earth and then pissing on it.
I also don't invest too much energy in the topic. I simply pointed out you are lying to yourself and provided the proof. The fact you didn't like it doesn't really bother me one way or the other. “Can’t argue with such an intellectual point of view. You have me stumped. You can go back to watching cartoons now.” Meant that you can wallow in your own bigotry all you want and it won't bother me one way or the other. If fantasy is the way you want to spend your life, it's fine by me.
No bile, or anger, or anything. The fact you think a slave government is your ideal is O.K. with me. I simply will call you on your revisionism, point out the lie, and move on.
I never posted to you in the first place. You were the one that wanted to lie to me. I simply called you on it.
You can go now.
Despite the warm welcome you received, you demerit, attack, lie, spread half truths, and any other thing you can dream up.
What about the case in which, say, ten properties whose owners wish to secede surround an eleventh who does not? What protection does he have?
Bringing it back to secession as practiced by the southern states in 1860-61, what protects the citizen of the United States who does not wish to secede? A sizable minority of voters did no support secession but were dragged, along with their property, into a new country.
Finally, given that Ft. Sumter was deeded property of the United States government, what justification, under your notion, did South Carolina have to begin shelling it?
If heaven ain't a lot like Dixie, I don't wanna go, If heaven ain't a lot like Dixie, I'd just as soon stay home. If they don't have a Grand Ole Opry, like they do in Tennessee, Just send me to hell or New York City, it would be about the same to me.
I've got wild honey trees and crazy little weeds, growin' around my shack, These dusty roads ain't streets of gold, but I'm a happy right where I'm at. All these pretty little southern belles are a country boy's dream, They ain't got wings or halos, but they're sure looking good to me.
Which article is that? I see mentions about what a state can or can't do, but nowhere do I find a definition and discussion of the state as a political entity.
Understandable. It's hard to invest energy when one is so wrong on the topic like you are.
The state is discussed, not the county or city, that was my point.
How can one argue with such piercing observations as that?
You win. Good for you. If you want, print off one of those online cut and paste certificates and go get some cookies and milk. You earned it.
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In Richmond on April 17, 1861, the 49 delegates from the future state of West Virginia voted 17 in favor of the Ordinance of Secession, 30 against[3], and 2 abstentions.[4] Almost immediately after the adoption of the ordinance a mass meeting at Clarksburg recommended that each county in north-western Virginia send delegates to a convention to meet in Wheeling on May 13, 1861.
When the First Wheeling Convention met, four hundred and twenty-five delegates from twenty-five counties were present, but soon there was a division of sentiment. Some delegates favored the immediate formation of a new state, while others argued that, as Virginia's secession had not yet been voted upon or become effective, such action would constitute revolution against the United States.[5] It was decided that if the ordinance were adopted (of which there was little doubt) another convention including the members-elect of the legislature should meet at Wheeling in June.
At the election (May 23, 1861), secession was ratified by a large majority in the state as a whole, in the western counties that would form the state of West Virginia the vote was approximately 34,677 against and 19,121 for ratification of the Ordinance of Secession. Counties Approving Virginia's Secession from the U.S.
The Second Wheeling Convention met as agreed on June 11 and declared that, since the Secession Convention had been called without the consent of the people, all its acts were void, and that all who adhered to it had vacated their offices. An act for the reorganization of the government was passed on June 19. The next day Francis H. Pierpont was chosen governor of Virginia, other officers were elected and the convention adjourned. The legislature, composed of the members from the western counties who had been elected on May 23 and some of the holdover senators who had been elected in 1859, met at Wheeling on July 1, filled the remainder of the state offices, organized a state government and elected two United States senators who were recognized at Washington, D.C. There were, therefore, two governments claiming to represent all of Virginia, one owing allegiance to the United States and one to the Confederacy. The pro-northern government authorized the creation of the state of Kanawha, consisting of most of the counties that now comprise West Virginia. A little over one month later, Kanawha was renamed West Virginia. The Wheeling Convention, which had taken a recess until August 6, reassembled on August 20 and called for a popular vote on the formation of a new state and for a convention to frame a constitution if the vote should be favorable. West Virginia Independence Hall, site of the Wheeling Convention.
At the election (October 24, 1861), 18,408 votes were cast for the new state and only 781 against. At this time West Virginia had nearly 70,000 qualified voters[6], and the May 23 vote on secession had drawn nearly 54,000 voters[7]. Votes from the secessionist counties in the October 24 vote on statehood were mostly cast by refugees in the area around Wheeling, not in the counties themselves.[8] In secessionist counties where a poll was conducted it was by military intervention. Even in some counties that had voted against secession, such as Wayne and Cabell, it was necessary to send in Union soldiers.[9] Statehood referendum Oct. 24, 1861
Returns from some counties were as low as 5%, e.g. Raleigh County 32-0 in favor of statehood, Clay 76-0, Braxton 22-0, and some gave no returns at all. The Constitutional Convention began on November 26, 1861 and finished its work on February 18, 1862, and the instrument was ratified (18,162 for and 514 against) on April 11, 1862.
The composition of the members of all three Wheeling Conventions, the May (First) Convention, the June (Second) Convention, and the Constitutional Convention, was of an irregular nature. The members of the May Convention were chosen by groups of Unionists, mostly in the far Northwestern counties. Over one-third came from the counties around the northern panhandle.[10] The May Convention resolved to meet again in June should the Ordinance of Secession be ratified by public poll on May 23, 1861, which it was. The June Convention consisted of 104 members, 35 of which were members of the General Assembly in Richmond, some elected in the May 23rd vote, and some hold-over State Senators. Arthur Laidley, elected to the General Assembly from Cabell County, attended the June Convention but refused to take part.[11] The other delegates to the June Convention were "chosen even more irregularly-some in mass meetings, others by county committee, and still others were seemingly self-appointed".[12] It was this June Convention which drafted the Statehood resolution. The Constitutional Convention met in November 1861, and consisted of 61 members. Its composition was just as irregular. A delegate representing Logan County was accepted as a member of this body, though he did not live in Logan County, and his "credentials consisted of a petition signed by fifteen persons representing six families".[13] The large number of Northerners at this convention caused great distrust over the new Constitution during Reconstruction years. In 1872, under the leadership of Samuel Price, former Lt. Governor of Virginia, the Wheeling constitution was discarded, and an entirely new one was written along ante-bellum principles. A Constitution of Our Own
The Wheeling politicians controlled only a small part of West Virginia. On September 20, 1862, Arthur Boreman wrote to Francis Pierpoint from Parkersburg: "The whole country South and East of us is abandoned to the Southern Confederacy—Men are here from the counties above named--[Wirt, Jackson, Roane] and indeed from Clay, Nicholas, &c &c,--who have been run off from their homes—Indeed the Ohio border is lined with refugees from Western Virginia. We are in worse condition than we were a year ago—These people come to me every day and say they can't stay at home...They must either have protection or abandon the country entirely... If they attempt to stay at home—they must keep their horses hid—and they dare not sleep at home but in the woods—and when at home in the day time they are in constant fear of their lives... The secessionists remain at home & are safe & now claim they are in the Southern Confederacy—which is practically the fact..."[14] Harpers Ferry (as it appears today) changed hands a dozen times during the American Civil War. an 1863 editorial condemning the government for accepting West Virginia as a state.
On May 13, the state legislature of the reorganized government approved the formation of the new state. An application for admission to the Union was made to Congress, and on December 31, 1862 an enabling act was approved by President Lincoln admitting West Virginia on the condition that a provision for the gradual abolition of slavery be inserted in the Constitution.[citation needed] [15][16] The Convention was reconvened on February 12, 1863, and the demand was met. The revised constitution was adopted on March 26, 1863, and on April 20, 1863 President Lincoln issued a proclamation admitting the state at the end of sixty days (June 20, 1863). Meanwhile officers for the new state were chosen, and Governor Pierpont moved his capital to Alexandria from which he asserted jurisdiction over the counties
The question, however, is whether the state is the fundamental particle of sovereignty or whether smaller political entities, down to the individual, have the same power.
No, what I am saying is the State and the Federal are the only political entities discussed in the USC.
To be sure, this is a very complex subject. WV’s secession is a very interesting topic. It is a perfect example where counties seceded from a state, and isn’t this what you wanted to discuss? Or are you not really ready to discuss it, just hurl it around for some strange reason...
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