Posted on 06/19/2009 5:16:14 PM PDT by BuckeyeTexan
Nor does your's.
But that was a nice try to mischaracterize: the court holding in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark states that Wong Kim Ark is a native born citizen.
And just where is the difference between native born and natural born outlined? In law or in the Constitution or in other Supreme Court decisions?
Finally you’re getting the point! ... A SCOTUS ruling on the definition of natural born citizen is needed as it applies to the Constitutional requirement for eligibility. Your desire to have native born mean the same thing as natural born does not remove the reality that a SCOTUS rendering is needed to settle the issue. But then, rational discussion isn’t what you come to these BC threads for anyway, by your own admission, so I don’t expect you’ll acknowledge a court ruling is needed where your affirmative action figure is the issue.
Apparently the Supreme Court doesn't agree, otherwise they would have taken up one of the dozen or so birther cases that have been presented to them.
Your desire to have native born mean the same thing as natural born does not remove the reality that a SCOTUS rendering is needed to settle the issue.
I would say that a clear reading of the Consitution would settle that. But if you think it takes a Supreme Court decision then good luck. We'll see if the court agrees.
Rational discussion and birther threads seldom collide.
I’m glad you’re enjoying your visit to FR. Have a spectacular day!
Oh I suspect I'll be here a while yet.
The Social Security Administration lists three “classes” of citizenship on its paperwork: Citizen born in the U.S.; Citizen born outside the U.S.; Naturalized citizen.
That would imply that there is a difference between the first two. Granted, we cannot know what at first glance. I can’t remember right now if it was regarding military or embassy personnel but a government agency published documentation that states that if you are born outside the U.S. during your parents’ deployment you are a citizen but may or may not be a natural born citizen. (I’m paraphrasing heavily so forgive the lack of quoted material. You know I’m good for it. I’ll provide it shortly.)
So clearly at least two government agencies recognize that there is no clear distinction whether or not a citizen born outside the U.S. is also natural born. A Supreme Court ruling is needed.
I don’t believe that we can say that the SCOTUS doesn’t see the need for a ruling based solely on their refusal to grant cert. in the eligibility cases. Here’s why. The cases were dismissed for lack of standing in the 1ower courts. To grant cert. would also grant standing. Since precedent plays a big role in our courts, the SCOTUS would in effect be setting a new precedent with regard to standing. That would open Pandora’s box. The courts have been careful to strictly ahere to the rules of standing. Agree or disagree with me about those two points?
Please check out Leo Donofrio’s blog regarding native born versus natural born. I believe they are the same, but I could be “misremembering.”
A pleasure, as always, N-S.
I told you I was good for it. Look up thread. See the foreign affairs manual in the section of the primer regarding statutory versus Constitutional natural born citizen.
So if one can be a citizen at birth but not a natural born citizen and there is no requirement to be naturalized, then doesn’t that inherently create three classes of citizenship? Sort of like limbo? We don’t know where they belong. A Supreme Court ruling is needed.
And where does it do that? Not on the SS-5 form used to apply for a Social Security number or to change citizenship status. So where does it make this distinction?
You know I’m good for it. I’ll provide it shortly.
And I look forward to seeing it.
So clearly at least two government agencies recognize that there is no clear distinction whether or not a citizen born outside the U.S. is also natural born. A Supreme Court ruling is needed.
The Social Security Administration would be one. Which is number two?
Please check out Leo Donofrio’s blog regarding native born versus natural born. I believe they are the same, but I could be “misremembering.”
Both Berg and Donofrio have raised the natural born citizenship question. However, Donofrion concedes Obama's birth in Hawaii and is raising the question of how natural born citizen is defined. I have read a lot of what he has to say, but I'm not convinced he's correct.
Typing from phone - please forgive grammar. SS Disability paperwork. Will provide link or scanned image tonight after work. (Father-in-law disabled.)
2nd agency would be foreign affairs.
Donofrio concedes his likely birth in Hawaii. The truth is we just don't know.
I just saw this. Thank you for the recognition. It's returned in kind.
Are you not convinced about a natural born citizen being born in the U.S. to two citizen parents or about native=natural?
To date I have not seen any evidence that Hawaii did so knowingly with the intent to defraud. If they were lied to, then they didn't issue a certificate knowingly. I have to stand by my previous statement until I am shown or find evidence to the contrary.
*snort* That's funny right there. I don't care who you are.
The online application for social security disability benefits is where you must stipulate the type of citizenship you hold. It lists the three choices I provided earlier. I don’t know what the form number is or if the printed form lists the same options. I have printed screen shots at home of the report I filled out for my father-in-law. I will black out his personal information tonight and scan it in for you.
If you’re just dying to see the form right now, you can also go the SSA Disability Home website, select “apply for adult 18 years and older,” and then select “apply online.” You can cancel out of the process without actually completing it.
On the Identification Tab, page 3 is the Birth and Citizenship Information page. There were five questions in my father-in-law’s case.
Were you born in the U.S. or a U.S. territory or commonwealth? Yes/No.
City of birth. (Free-format text field)
State of birth. (Drop-down list)
U.S. Citizen? Yes/No
Type of Citizenship. (Drop-down list: U.S. Citizen born inside U.S.; U.S. Citizen born outside U.S.; Naturalized Citizen)
But no natural born citizen status. Curious.
Very curious indeed. The instructions for the disability paperwork indicate that if you were born outside the U.S. you will need to provide proof of citizenship AND a birth certificate.
Of course they could be be both, but not like Schrödinger's Cat, the cat will be one or the other when someone checks. But even one's status is collapsed, one can be both "native born" and "natural born". The sets "citizen" or "native born citizen", and "natural born citizen" can overlap. It's only "natural born citizen" and "naturalized citizen" that are non-overlapping.
A Venn diagram would be clearer, but I have no way of creating and posting one.
Denial of the The Excluded Middle, often leads to false conclusions.
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