So.....feeling your oats again, huh BroJoe. Someone else has joined the fray on your side of the argument and you are once again emboldened to call me a liar and PWIMMA.
I’ve claimed that no one is a liar...notice I’ve left out the expletive. If you feel compelled to go back and read the things that I’ve written, you’ll see that I think evolutionists use circular reasoning and that since one of the two possible truths is excluded from consideration, science has in effect “handcuffed” itself. Since it can only posit “natural” answers for things that may not have natural answers they can (and do) come to some wrong conclusions.
This does not make them liars......it makes them mistaken and constricted by their paradigm.
****especially on matters they’ve spent their whole adult lives in study and research****
So have scientists who disagree with them....are they to be dismissed?
****But you just can’t cope when someone suggests that fact about your own team, can you?****
In my opinion, js1138 appears to be well-versed in this topic. His venom exceeded even yours (in your earlier posts and now it seems, once again since you’ve been emboldened by a soulmate.)
I’ve been coming on Free Republic almost daily for as long as I can remember.....before 9/11/2001....I know this because I remember going there for news on that day. I quit posting a long time ago because of people like js1138 seems to be (I don’t want to totally indict him based on one post). I don’t like invective used in an otherwise reasoned argument nor do I like the kind of attack that he made on a group of scientists that put forth an argument refuting his worldview.
He has leveled an accusation of fraud against the scientists on the RATE team. I can’t tell you or him whether their conclusions are correct but I can tell you this..... their work was not deliberately fraudulent.
These men all have submitted to the Lordship of Christ. Is it possible for one or two of them to get together and do something fraudulent? Absolutely.....we are fallen creatures and subject to the pressures of a sinful world.
What he is saying is that 10 men who have professed Christ conspired to put forth a deliberate fraud. One or two, maybe. Ten, no way. They are accountable to one another and more importantly, they are accountable to Christ.
I’ve not called your side liars (no matter how many times you say that I have). I don’t have anything more to say to js1138 based on his attitude and his invective...and in fact, a few posts back I told you that I was making my final points to you, so I shouldn’t even be writing this.
****Of course I have no expertise on this matter, but for what it’s worth, I suspect JS1138 is absolutely right here****
This can only be based on one thing and it’s certainly not an examination of the facts....since he agrees with you philosophically, you think he must be right on this. Empirically it has no basis.
****you ought to be ashamed of what you’re trying to do!****
I’ve been very open and above board with what I believe and why I believe it.....so what is it that I have to be ashamed about?
****And if I’m wrong, then you will provide us all with simple, direct and truthful answers, won’t you?****
When have I ever not done that? You may want to do a little tour through all of our posts and review what has taken place in our conversations....you’ll see that I’ve always done that.
In refutation of your previous post about dating methods....once again your own side refutes you:
Frederic B. Jueneman in an article in “Industrial Research and Development” called “Secular Catastrophism”:
The age of our globe is presently thought to be some 4.5 billion years, based on radiodecay rates of uranium and thorium. Such ‘confirmation’ may be short-lived, as nature is not to be discovered quite so easily. There has been in recent years the horrible realization that RADIODECAY RATES ARE NOT AS CONSTANT AS PREVIOUSLY THOUGHT, NOR ARE THEY IMMUNE TO ENVIRONMENTAL INFLUENCES. And THIS COULD MEAN THAT THE ATOMIC CLOCKS ARE RESET DURING SOME GLOBAL DISASTER, and events which brought the Mesozoic to a close may not be 65 million years ago but rather within the age and memory of man.
THE MECHANISM FOR RESETTING SUCH NUCLEAR CLOCKS IS NOT CLEAR, but knowledge has never really stood in our way in the quest for ignorance.
William D. Stansfield in the book “The Science of Evolution”:
It is obvious that radiometric techniques may not be the absolute dating methods that they are claimed to be. AGE ESTIMATES ON A GIVEN GEOLOGICAL STRATUM BY DIFFERENT RADIOMETRIC METHODS ARE OFTEN QUITE DIFFERENT (sometimes by hundreds of millions of years). THERE IS NO ABSOLUTELY RELIABLE LONG-TERM RADIOLOGICAL “CLOCK”.
I gave you examples of different methods giving wildly different results on the exact same rock....how can this happen if the “blocking method” resets the clock?
Here’s how it happens.....assumptions are made...several of them. When anything is assumed, the answer can be nothing more than an educated guess subject to the limitations of the worldview of the person (or orthodoxy) doing the assuming.
It could be right, it could be wrong...and I might say that the same would hold true if it was my side doing the assuming.
I really am done this time....you and I have beat enough dead horses in this dialogue.
I’ll leave you with this:
ROMANS 1:19-20
19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
ROMANS 1:25
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
HEBREWS 11:3
3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
We are all without excuse. God has made it plain to all of us that He is the All-Powerful Creator. I’ll pray for you BroJoe....I hope that one day you’ll come to know the truth.
But of course, it WAS deliberately fraudulent, if they refused to submit their work for peer-review, or if the results could not be duplicated by other scientists doing the same research!
This is what's so distressing to me! Here we have what are apparently a pack of "sh*t faced liars," doing fraudulent "scientific" work, and at the same time claiming to be Christians! Schaef21, that's an abomination!
You should take personal responsibility for telling those folks to straighten up and fly right. If it's real science, then submit it for peer-review and replication. Otherwise, go home and do something else!
schaef21: "This can only be based on one thing and it’s certainly not an examination of the facts....since he agrees with you philosophically, you think he must be right on this. Empirically it has no basis."
It's based on the following:
Where are the peer-reviews?
Where are the independent labs doing the same research and achieving the same results?
If there are none, it likely means these people are ashamed of their work and know that it's fraudulent.
Sorry, but I am not impressed with your excuses -- because there are many legitimate controversies in science, where some scientists spend years developing an experiment just to prove their colleagues wrong.
So I am just not going to believe that if these folks of yours have legitimate results to report, that someone somewhere would not be willing to peer-review and replicate it.
I beg to differ with you on this. Several members of the RATE team have the credentials to know that what they did is fraudulent. Their proposals were widely reviewed and rejected even before they began. An honest researcher would clear up challenges to methodology before starting a research project.
"The age of our globe is presently thought to be some 4.5 billion years, based on radiodecay rates of uranium and thorium. Such ‘confirmation’ may be short-lived, as nature is not to be discovered quite so easily. There has been in recent years the horrible realization that RADIODECAY RATES ARE NOT AS CONSTANT AS PREVIOUSLY THOUGHT, NOR ARE THEY IMMUNE TO ENVIRONMENTAL INFLUENCES. And THIS COULD MEAN THAT THE ATOMIC CLOCKS ARE RESET DURING SOME GLOBAL DISASTER, and events which brought the Mesozoic to a close may not be 65 million years ago but rather within the age and memory of man.
"THE MECHANISM FOR RESETTING SUCH NUCLEAR CLOCKS IS NOT CLEAR,"
Actually if, as he claims, decay rates are not constant, then the earth could just as easily be 45 billion years old as 4.5 billion. In other words, the earth might then just as well be older than we think!
But of course there's no evidence that atomic decay rates ever vary, except under certain specific conditions. And we have discussed at length now problems of contamination and blocking temperatures.
By the way, on that subject, blocking temperatures are not going to be identical for every radiometric material. So if a rock is heated underground to melting point, and then slowly cools, it will reach the blocking temperatures of different radiometric materials (thus resetting their atomic clocks) at different times.
Keep in mind, the "age" we can determine of any rock is only the time lapsed since its blocking temperatures were reached.
And why, anyway, should we be terribly concerned about dating accuracy within some small percent? What we're really looking for here is a general idea of how and when the earth developed. Did it happen 4.5 billion years ago, or 450 million, or 45 million, or 4.5 million, or 450,000 or 45,000 or is it even younger than that?
All our scientific evidence points to the older numbers.
Look schaef21, I'm no scientist nor theologian, but there seems to me a hugely obvious answer to this whole quandary, and this is it, from your Young Earth perspective: God created the world just as the Bible tells us, but He did it in such a way as to fool our materialist scientists into believing the world is much older, and everything came about naturally, i.e., through evolution.
Why God would ever do such a thing is not for us to ask, but it sure seems to me that would solve your problem, wouldn't it? ;-)