[CE2949BB]

To sink to your level for a moment and make it personal, I’ll just point out that Rand had the same problem when having to confront the fact that parts of her belief system were just as mystical as those she decried as mystics.

Such as?

If nothing is supernatural, then the reality is that “natural rights’ are nothing more than mere constructions by the majority and a matter of convenience, not reality. Under such a system, you murdering someone is not morally wrong. It may cause a problem for civilization if done on a large scale, but there really is nothing wrong with you doing what you can if you can get away with it.

Sigh. If a belief in God is the only thing stopping you from murdering, I hope your faith remains as solid as a rock.

[NinoFan]

OK, forget it. You have yet to address any of my original points, all of which were reasonable. They are nothing new and have been debated by philosophers and thinking men for centuries, so I didn’t expect a response that was particularly groundbreaking, but I at least expected something more than the logical equivalent of “God declared it so” from someone who doesn’t believe in the supernatural. There is little use in debating someone who isn’t willing to admit that even the concept of natural rights existing is very open to debate.

On a side note, I’d appreciate it if in any future discussion you would approach me as an individual and not a member of any particular group. Yes, I’m a Christian, but I’m also gay, very well educated, and a host of other things that no doubt won’t fit into the “us vs. them” mentality you displayed with your use of “We’ll make sure it stays that way.”

[metmom]

If a belief in God is the only thing stopping you from murdering, I hope your faith remains as solid as a rock.

Likewise your system of beliefs is what keeps you from murdering anyone, if you believe that it is wrong.

That still doesn't address the notion that without God there is no legitimate basis for any moral system. *Right* and *wrong* just become human constructs that work for whichever society you happen to be in.

Moral relativism is no better than none.

[grey_whiskers]

Try looking for the short story "When Doctors Agree" by G.K. Chesterton. You might find it in his book The Paradoxes of Mr. Pond (available free as a Project Gutenberg of Australia effort here).

Go to the link and search for the words "WHEN DOCTORS AGREE" and you will arrive at the top of the story.

The hardtext is available from Amazon.com:

# Publisher: Dover Publications (January 1, 1990)
# Language: English
# ISBN-10: 0486261859
# ISBN-13: 978-0486261850

and if I am reading correctly is also available via Kindle.

Cheers!

...oh, and Merry Christmas!