Posted on 06/10/2007 7:24:29 PM PDT by Reaganesque
FoF,
Very good points about God which has changed and one which is unchanging. How does one rectify that paradox? Well, there are few things debated in Mormon theology, so my ideas are my own. But it is my opinion, that such a paradox is resolved, when we look at the Atonement of Jesus Christ. It is effects work forward and backwards eternally. One of its blessings is that we are forgiven of sin and that forgiveness is as if we have never sinned at all. God says he remembers it no more. Basically, the foundations of ALL the Universe and ALL the power and ALL the mercies of God rest upon and through the grace of Jesus Christ and Atonement of Jesus Christ.
re: 278
Let’s start with this one:
You said, “And BTW I only selectively bash just certain Mormons, the bigots who won’t denounce the unquestionably bigoted phrases in the Book of Mormon.”
Who has been the FINAL JUDGe who pronounced AND PROVED said phrases in the Book of Mormon to be “unquestionable bigoted?
That, by the way is basically a summation of all of the questions I have asked and not had answered. Who is this infallible truthtelling judge?
“Well, are you aware that jesus stated that man comes to the Father but by Him?”
If the Mormon faith is correct we must get the appoval of Joseph Smith too.
If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by Joseph Smith; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him.” - 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142, Apostle George Q. Cannon quoted.
seven,
My understanding of mormonism teaching is that everyone
will go to heaven no matter what - just the basement level.
But that by doing all the works, a mormonism follower can
be exalted to the higher levels with a shot at becoming a
god. Is that incorrect?
Assuming that what I read and stated above is true, since
everyone will go to heaven, what were you saved from? Why
would a “personal Savior” be needed?
thanks in advance,
ampu
re: 283
I thought we were talking about the bigotry of the Mormon bashers and the alleged heresy of the Mormons.
I'm not a basher, but what are the questions?
Several explanations:
1. The Book of Mormon is Wrong
2. Joseph Smith is wrong
3. God is lying to us
4. The Mormon religion is a bizzare fantasy of Joesph Smith
Do you see any bigotry in these Bible scriptures?
(Ex. 21:2-6)
If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he shall go out by himself.
And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
(Exodus 21:20-21)
And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
(Lev. 25:44-46)
Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.
And for those who think it only appears in the Old Testament, consider the following:
(Colossians 4:1)
Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven.
(1 Peter 2:18-21)
Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
And for those of the female persuasion, the Bible says thus:
(1 Corinthians 14:34-35)
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
(1 Tim. 2: 11-12)
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
I think the Savior said something about removing the beam from your own eye before you worry about the sliver in your neighbor’s eye.
Racism is ancient. BofM as well as the Bible are ancient texts. No surprise there. To me, if it wasn’t then it wouldn’t be authentic. :)
You said “No accusation. Just a question.”
I replied with some thought and it was not addressed but rather turned on me. Oh well, your motive is clear. No discussion is needed.
Since you are on an apology kick, per se, I would expect you to ask Noah, Abraham, Job, Peter, James, and countless others to apologize too! :)
the Atonement of Jesus Christ. It is effects work forward and backwards eternally.
Sorry, but backwards attonment doesn't work.
"Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked. And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb." Alma 35:34-36
"And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment-seat of the Holy One of Israel; and then cometh the judgment, and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God. And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end." 2 Nephi 9:15-16
Forgivness is forever. - it won't be taken away in a forward looking way. But the BOM cleary shows it doesn't work backwards. This is why I don't understand the baptism of the dead, either. That seems to be refuted by Alma and 2 Nephi
No discussion is needed
Sorry you feel that way. I am always ready to listen.
re: 287
Look them up, I am not going to go back and dig through going on 300 posts to find them for you. But you might start with — who has the authority and ABSOLUTELY SURE knowledge that the Mormons are heretics and teach false doctrines, and from whence did this ABSOLUTELY SURE knowledge come?
re; 289
Off subject.
See # 286.
Unfortunately Noah, Abraham, Peter, James and many other people are dead :( But if they were racist then I think they should’ve repented. I’m not sure the Bible or any other holy book has ever suggested that Noah, Abraham, Peter and James were all perfect men.
Now I’d like a simple yes/no answer from you. Do you denounce the bigotry/racism of the Book of Mormon? Or do you sustain it?
So once upon a time folks who believed the earth was round, or that it was not the center of the universe, or that blood circulated through the body were heretics
Yes, they were heretics.
Does that mean that those folks were wrong?
No, they were proven to be correct.
Therefore, it would seem that calling someone a heretic is kinda silly and an empty opinion based on little more than arrogant declarations of alleged truths.
Not at all. The Flat Earthers had maps to prove the earth was flat. Scripture is the revealed truth of God, sort of like the maps of the flat earth people. If you can prove that the flat earth maps are wrong, you know with absolute certainty that their beliefs are wrong. These beliefs were proven wrong with calculations, experiments, and later satellite maps.
And I will point out another source of doxens of inconsistencies — the Holy Bible. Does that make ALL christian sects out to be heretics?
No, one of them is correct or they are all wrong. Christ said He is THE way, THE truth, THE life. Not one of many. We have to try to figure out which is the correct one.
One way we do that is to see if in Scripture, in context, things are consistent with beliefs. I pointed out where Morman theology says that God is both unchanging but changes. This doesn’t make sense in any context. Another example is the Mormon doctrine that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are actually three separate gods. The Book of Mormon contradicts this view: " And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God? And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God. Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? And he answered, No. Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things? And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me. Alma 11:26-31 Another is in post 293 with Baptism of the dead.
who has the authority and ABSOLUTELY SURE knowledge that the Mormons are heretics and teach false doctrines, and from whence did this ABSOLUTELY SURE knowledge come?
This absolutely sure knowledge comes from the Mormon texts themselves.
We look at things revealed in context. There is no context that can solve for the opposite views that have to be held to believe what Mormon’s believe. I don’t know with absolute certainty that what I believe is correct, but I know with absolute certainty that Mormon beliefs are wrong. They are not even internally consistent.
“I don’t know with absolute certainty that what I believe is correct, but I know with absolute certainty that Mormon beliefs are wrong.”
>>>> Very closely akin to ‘don’t do as I do, do as I say’.
And, if true, don’t you think you would be spending your time better looking to the truth of your beliefs before you seek to undermine those of others?
Really not following you here.
And, if true, don’t you think you would be spending your time better looking to the truth of your beliefs before you seek to undermine those of others?
Absolutle not!
Questioning is not undermining. I have learned much about my beliefs by questioning them myself, and responding to questions from others. I look to others to see if they might be right. Believe me, I'd love to become a god some day with my own universe. So is that the truth, or is it like the temptation of Eve - "Ye shall be as gods?"
These are important questions.
Yes, I denounce racism where ever it is found! In the Book of Mormon, yes! In the Bible, yes! In Shakespeare, yes! and so on! Sorry but it doesn’t shake my faith one ioata though. Racism has plagued humans from the very beginning of time until now. Ancient texts, even holy texts are not exempt. Sorry for being a realist.
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