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May I Please Fire Before They Kill Me, Sir? [Marines on Trial]
Defend Our Marines ^ | April 15, 2007 | David Allender

Posted on 04/15/2007 2:12:23 PM PDT by RedRover

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To: smoothsailing

Absolutely, smooth. And there is no recourse, no way to know unless Gen. Mattis were to admit that Murtha was twisting his arm.


61 posted on 04/15/2007 7:12:19 PM PDT by RedRover (Defend Our Marines)
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To: RedRover; smoothsailing

Thanks to you both for the insight and calm assessment of our military and the unjust way they are treated in some of their actions.

It’s easy for some to sit back and say how this or that should be handled when certain things happen in war. In my mind if a soldier or Marine is protecting himself or his buddy he should not be second guessed for acting in the way he was trained. This holds true whether that man is 18 or 38 and that 19 or 20 year old is no longer a kid when they finish their training. To refer to them as such is wrong.

Non combatants have always died in wars and always will and prosecuting our men for that collateral damage is wrong unless it is out and out murder. It’s clear to me that the Haditha Marines were not out to murder innocents.

I will not get into these debates because I wind up saying things I shouldn’t and sometimes regret it later. Thanks again.


62 posted on 04/15/2007 7:17:17 PM PDT by jazusamo (http://warchronicle.com/TheyAreNotKillers/DefendOurMarines.htm)
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To: Girlene; RedRover
what happens when a Haditha happens? Does Gen. Patraeus say to throw the Marines under the bus? I doubt it. I believe I read not long after he took command in Iraq that he tried to clarify ROE and at the same time reassure the troops they would be backed up and not second-guessed.

Wouldn't that in large part depend on what actually happened at Haditha? What's clear is that, unless the soldiers acted objectively unreasonably, they should have little to worry about. In the case of Haditha, once all the facts are in, that will be decided. Neither you nor I have access to all the facts to decide if the Marines there acted reasonably. All that we know is from sources with agendas - on both sides.

Another thing about this manual, does it give direction/rules on how to deal with a free media or politicians who are increasingly hostile to the war effort, and thus the troops, and use them in their specific agendas

That's a political question the military does not (and should not) handle. Further, I would question if the media or politicians are hostile to the war itself - some clearly are, but I think most are simply frustrated at the desperate situation in which we find ourselves. Fewer still are actually hostile to the troops, even if their policies are misguided and shortsighted.

63 posted on 04/15/2007 7:21:10 PM PDT by jude24 (Seen in Beijing: "Shangri-La is in you mind, but your Buffalo is not.")
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To: jazusamo

You’re welcome, jaz. See you tomorrow!


64 posted on 04/15/2007 7:23:22 PM PDT by RedRover (Defend Our Marines)
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To: RedRover

OOPS...please pardon me...I got so caught up in the exchanges I never said GREAT to the article!
Good night.


65 posted on 04/15/2007 7:24:58 PM PDT by lilycicero (SSgt Frank Wuterich and his squad did their job well.)
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To: jude24; Girlene

Food for thought. Night, guys!


66 posted on 04/15/2007 7:26:24 PM PDT by RedRover (Defend Our Marines)
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To: jude24
Such has happened, and is inevitable when you send twenty-somethings out with guns to kill people.

your comments are so incredibly idiotic that they must be part of /sarcasm or you want to get flamed

very few join the Armed Forces to "kill people"

I can tell you that completing the mission of defending our country,

-willing to die for our country

-willing to fight and place yourself between genuinely bad people in far away places at night or in foreign places and our country

-but above all willing to do your duty in spite of chicken sh#t liberal quislings questioning your motivation and honor make the Marine Corps front line troops the main target for the people like yourself that think combat is murder.

Combat is to murder like holy matrimony is to pornography. It's pathetic, uneducated cowards that label soldiers and Marines "killers".

I take pride in service, but above all else I take pride in the bravery I've seen and the brothers in arms that have honored me by allowing me to serve at their side when "so called men" like yourself are safe at home while they defended my life with their lives.

67 posted on 04/15/2007 7:27:05 PM PDT by Dick Vomer (liberals suck....... but it depends on what your definition of the word "suck" is.,)
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To: Dick Vomer
I'll give ya this much

68 posted on 04/15/2007 7:28:15 PM PDT by freema (Marine FRiend, 1stCuz2xRemoved, Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: RedRover

The drunken Politically Correct hippie holdovers are insisting on a P.C. war, just like Vietnam - so America will again have to retreat, tail tucked between legs - to the delight of the Hate America First P.C. crowd.

I agree, though, if this bunch is going to tie the hands of the American warriors so they can’t defend themselves without risking a murder conviction - then bring them home NOW and let the war hero, John Kerry and his crowd, defend themselves on their own turf. Then shooting the enemy in the back might even be acceptable if it threatened their vacations in the Hamptons.


69 posted on 04/15/2007 7:30:44 PM PDT by Twinkie (Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God . . .)
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To: jazusamo; RedRover
Red deserves all the credit. I just stopped by for the chips(post 51) and beer(post 55)!!!

Have some,Jaz, there'e plenty! :-)

70 posted on 04/15/2007 7:31:39 PM PDT by smoothsailing ("Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction"--President Ronald Reagan)
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To: lilycicero

Goodnight, Kansas. ;)


71 posted on 04/15/2007 7:31:55 PM PDT by RedRover (Defend Our Marines)
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To: smoothsailing; RedRover

LOL! I’ll have some chips and talk to the barmaid, that’ll leave more beer for you guys. Nothin’ wrong with talkin’ is there? :-)


72 posted on 04/15/2007 7:39:02 PM PDT by jazusamo (http://warchronicle.com/TheyAreNotKillers/DefendOurMarines.htm)
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To: Dick Vomer
very few join the Armed Forces to "kill people"

Certainly true - but at the end of the day, that is the purpose of the military. There is no point in blunting the truth. It's purpose is lethal.

It's pathetic, uneducated cowards that label soldiers and Marines "killers".

No one here - and certainly not I - did. I said they are sent out "to kill people." I didn't call them "killers," and certainly not "murderers."

Combat is to murder like holy matrimony is to pornography

A more accurate comparison would be to compare combat with sex. Within the proper bounds, both sex and combat are appropriate. It's when it is divorced from those bounds that it becomes immoral. For sex, it's the bounds of matrimony. For combat, it's the bounds of a war fought jus ad bellum and jus in bellum.

Taking offense at the concept that soldiers kill people is sort of like taking offense at the concept that married people have sex.

So, frankly, nuts to all the people taking offense at the thought that soldiers are sent out to kill. It's the plain and simple truth.

73 posted on 04/15/2007 7:41:12 PM PDT by jude24 (Seen in Beijing: "Shangri-La is in you mind, but your Buffalo is not.")
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To: jude24
the fact that they have to go to trial is bad enough. Imagine doing a tour, making it out of combat and going home....then to find out you have to face court martial charges, get lawyer-ed up have your name up for libs to use you next to Hitler....

all because you did your duty during a firefight....going to "trial" isn't a big thing for a lawyer..that's what you or they do. It's in their nature to be in a court room. Most normal people avoid the legal system and find the company of lawyers and the legal machinery repulsive.

So before everyone thinks, "Hey, it's no big deal if you're not guilty, don't worry"... The year or two of twisting in the wind will sour the experience of survival. It will make warriors think, "why should I risk anything if all I'll get is JAG up my a## till I retire if things go Dixie".

I may have heard a little about anti-Guerrilla warfare in Indonesia and Central and South America..... most civilian casualties are from the guerrillas in order to pacify or recruit the populace. Kids, women, children, nuns, cripples, priests, monks, taxi drivers...etc... all are threats or friends.... you never know who the "threat" is till you die. If you find a "threat" and don't imprison or kill it, it will kill you later or one of your men, or so I've heard.

74 posted on 04/15/2007 7:44:50 PM PDT by Dick Vomer (liberals suck....... but it depends on what your definition of the word "suck" is.,)
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To: jazusamo; RedRover
LOL! G'Night, guys!
75 posted on 04/15/2007 7:45:12 PM PDT by smoothsailing ("Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction"--President Ronald Reagan)
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To: Dick Vomer
I've changed my mind, Dick!

76 posted on 04/15/2007 7:46:51 PM PDT by freema (Marine FRiend, 1stCuz2xRemoved, Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: smoothsailing; RedRover

G’Night, all!


77 posted on 04/15/2007 7:48:11 PM PDT by jazusamo (http://warchronicle.com/TheyAreNotKillers/DefendOurMarines.htm)
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To: RedRover

The Dems are trying to make this into Me Lie and can’t find enough Liars.

Pray for W and Our Troops


78 posted on 04/15/2007 7:49:23 PM PDT by bray (The Surge is Working against both enemies of America)
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To: Dick Vomer
I wonder - in the time you served, you never heard the aphorism that the purpose of the military is to kill people and break things?

"so called men" like yourself are safe at home while they defended my life with their lives.

Don't make assumptions when you don't know anything about who I am, or where I am coming from.

79 posted on 04/15/2007 7:50:56 PM PDT by jude24 (Seen in Beijing: "Shangri-La is in you mind, but your Buffalo is not.")
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To: freema
I don't deserve to be placed on the same page, chapter or book as ""Manila John." Basilone.

or any of the others that those stamps show...

I wonder if "Manila Joe" used excessive force on Guadalcanal during the defense of Henderson Field.

From what I've read of the great legal minds on this thread he wouldn't have anything to worry about after he earned his MOH. In fact he would have missed Iwo Jima and the Navy Cross and Purple Heart he earned their for bravery.... oh yeah. He wouldn't have died on Iwo Jima either since he'd be up on charges for using excessive force on the Japanese.

80 posted on 04/15/2007 8:03:02 PM PDT by Dick Vomer (liberals suck....... but it depends on what your definition of the word "suck" is.,)
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