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To: Atlantic Bridge
First of all, you obviously put a lot of thought into your post. Thanks for that. I'm impressed that you thought enough of mine to put that much effort into a reply.

Not that long ago I had a funny discussion with a Mormon girl and boy from the US who came here to southern Germany to "evangelize" me. They even learned German to find new lambs for their church. Being brainwashed with their (to me) strange ideology and religion they were unable to understand that nearly nobody (including me) was really interested into their message. Two strange birds. Probably you will find yourself in the same situation like them if you argue with other Europeans on your basis and your conviction.

I wasn't evangelizing you, it was an observation. I don't argue with people about their faith, or try to convert someone who isn't looking for an an answer. Usually, if I go on a mission trip, I go to a third world country. I also don't tell people how to run their sex lives. As to the Mexicans overrunning Texas, yeah, and some of them married into my family, and I'm part Indian. I've got three kids and my brother has five, so we're doing our part, as best we can. I also find your post curious, because I rechecked my initial post, and I said NOTHING about religion, yet your response to me is full of references to Mormonism, Westboro Baptist Church, etc. and indicating that I'm trying to force some religious dogma on you. While faith is part of it, I was thinking more about what I perceive as a general European indifference to children. I saw a European ad, for example, that showed a young boy running around making problems in a store, tearing things up, stepping on people's feet, etc., and at the end, it was an advertisment for birth control. It was supposed to be cute and funny, but I think it's indicative of the European attitude towards children. I would agree with you that this is a problem in some parts of the US, also. In San Francisco, for example, I've read several articles where the author laments there are no children playing on the playscapes there. They don't want to have kids, they just want them playing in the background when they walk by (probably ethnically diverse kids, kind of like an ad for Microsoft, but with little kids instead of adults).

Nevertheless you do not understand anything about art. Art is more than a reduced primitivism that produces cute pictures. If you like such than you have to go to North Korea.

Well, my degree is in Art, but you may be right. I suppose I always lumped Warhol into the European thought process because I consider him the ideological heir of Marcel Duchamp. Most of the things after Dada, the artists were seriously trying to make Art. IMHO, Warhol was the same type of con man, who kind of threw something out there and dared people not to call it Art. Nevertheless, most of my art instructors despaired over my dislike of the "great" artists of the twentieth century. My personal favorites are Kay Nielson, Andrew Wyeth, Howard Pyle, Frank Frazetta, ancient Greek sculpture, Norman Rockwell, Carl Barks (the Disney artist that did the Uncle Scrooge comics), Michelangelo, Gianlorenzo Bernini, and the photographers Margaret Bourke-White, Weegee and Vincent LaForet. There are others, of course, but the Abstract Expressionists, Modernists, Pop artists and the shock artists leave me cold. Most of my instructors pronounced me hopelessly middle class, so you could be right about me knowing nothing about art. However, I know what I like, and I have studied enough to pick up on the underlying ideologies of the various genres. I also do like primitivism, if it's real and not faked. Patchwork quilts, American folk art, some South American folk art, yeah, I can dig that. Never been to Korea, so couldn't comment on the work you mention.

Oh well - My granddad shot down quite a few US-bombers (and also machines from the UK) over Germany in late WWII with his Focke-Wulf and left a real mountain of American corpses.

You are aware the Americans had an answer for that:


116 posted on 02/18/2007 9:29:19 AM PST by Richard Kimball
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To: Richard Kimball
You wrote:

Postmodernism and the preoccupation with sex also did an incredible amount of damage. One of the interesting things is that the more preoccupied a culture becomes with sex, the fewer children they have. They abort, or use birth control, and sex is recreation, not procreation. Ultimately, the Post-Modernists believe in nothing. This is Europe's primary problem, now. They don't believe in anything, and don't even have the energy to reproduce.

and

I also don't tell people how to run their sex lives.

It might be true that you do not tell people how to run their sex lives but you put yourself into the position of a arrogant "judge" over other people you obviously know nothing about. All your observations are somehow wrong. You should know that I am a 100% European. I love my country, my continent and its people. Although I like the US and America it would never ever be a place for me to live in since I like my own country much better. I want to have America as a friend but not as a home. Why is that the case? Because the people who surround me have belief, they have culture and they love children. I for my part am the father of three little and wild boys and I am slightly over the reproduction rate. My family has a strong christian basement. No - we do not rape our neighbours, we don't have group sex parties and we are not engaged in sodomy. We try to be nice and decent people.

I do not know if you are able to understand that I feel displeased if someone from Texas is telling me that my fellow Europeans and myself are hedonistic sexmaniacs that believe into nothing. Maybe you should remember yourself that it is your own nation that has the biggest porn industry worldwide. If you guys over there reduce your sexuality to reproduction (of course I know that you do not) than there might be a real need for it.

I suppose I always lumped Warhol into the European thought process because I consider him the ideological heir of Marcel Duchamp.

Although Duchamp also alienated other works (i.e. the Mona Lisa of Da Vinci) he did it because of another motivation than Warhol. Duchamp simply wanted to make fun. Furthermore he liked to provoke. Andy Warhol had a problem with his existence and its finiteness in a pathological sense. Therefore he reproduced his works as often as he could since he thought that this may be a way to overcome the finiteness. Both of them have nothing or only very little to do with contemporary European art. I recommend that you inform yourself about the current European art scene before you give any evaluations. "Hip" German artists are i.e. Neo Rauch or Norbert Bisky. The today's European art trend is objective and not cubist (like parts of Duchamp) or iterative (like Warhol).

However, I know what I like, and I have studied enough to pick up on the underlying ideologies of the various genres. I also do like primitivism, if it's real and not faked.

Absolutely no problem with that as long as you do not put others into "drawers" they do not belong to. You are of course free to have our own taste.

You are aware the Americans had an answer for that:

Yes I am aware that you had Patton and I also know that the German Wehrmacht mainly lost the war in the endlessness of the Russian steppe and because of the cretinism of our former "leader" Hitler. You Americans only were the tip of an iceberg. But that does not hit the point. My point was that we Europeans know that war only should be waged if it is unavoidable in the meantime. I wanted to explain our reasons for that point of view. BTW - being cautious with declaring wars is a quite clever attitude. :)

141 posted on 02/18/2007 7:19:27 PM PST by Atlantic Bridge (De omnibus dubitandum!)
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To: Richard Kimball

Those who deny that Europe is secular are either lying or stupid.


154 posted on 02/18/2007 8:45:55 PM PST by Red6 (Come and get it.)
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