POLAND AND RUSSIA HAVE CONFLICTING STRATEGIC INTERESTS (Ukraine)

Rzeczpospolita, Polish News Bulletin, Warsaw, Poland | Jul 13, 2005 | Joanna Strzelczyk

[Lukasz]

The Albania-Macedonia-Bulgaria Oil Pipeline (AMBO) Because oil exports from the Caspian Sea region are projected to increase rapidly in the next decade, several oil pipeline proposals to bypass Turkey's increasingly congested Bosporus and Dardanelles straits (see map) are under consideration or in development. The 570-mile, 750,000-barrel-per-day (bbl/d) AMBO pipeline will connect the Bulgarian Black Sea port of Burgas with the Albanian Adriatic port of Vlore, allowing seaborne oil exports from Russia and the Caspian Sea region to flow overland between the Black Sea and the Adriatic. In December 2004, AMBO announced that front-end engineering and design (FEED) on the $1.2-billion pipeline would be completed in early 2005 following the December 28, 2004 signing of a memorandum of understanding (MOU) by ministers from Bulgaria, Albania, and Macedonia. Construction is expected to begin within the next 12 months for operation within three years.

I think Poland and Ukraine would be able to benefit from that project as well. The only thing Poland and Ukraine would have to do is ask Bulgaria to connect a junction from Bulgaria and take it northwards through Romania, Ukraine and into Poland.

Well, this pipe is already too long and there is too many transit countries and destiny of this gas is mostly western Europe. If we discussing gas projects, then Ukraine would like to build pipeline from Iran ( second leg may be from Turkmenistan via Caspian Sea, Azerbaijan to Georgia) through Armenia, Georgia, Black Sea to Ukraine and further to Europe. It would be better project for us, but I doubt that we will have enough money. We need a help of western companies but now they are more interested in this Russian project through the Baltic Sea. There is also problem with bank credits, because political situation in this region is unstable.

This might be something that US, Poland and other European countries may come together to get rid of China's political influence by investing more in Kazakhstan.

Only US concerns have enough money, our firms may be just cooperates. But I know that some Polish firms would lake to have access to Kazakhs resources, recently the biggest Polish firms signed common memorandum of cooperation.

[sergey1973]

I'm looking forward to oil alternatives -:)))) Maybe it's premature, but I really hope for a technological breakthrough in the very near future that can allow the world to stop relying on oil as the primary source of the energy. Oil proved to be more often a curse than a blessing for the social and economic development of many countries. Corrupt and autocratic regimes in Russia, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Venezuella and other places are in power mostly because of the constant flow of oil dollars. With a few exceptions (Norway), oil impedes development of democratic institutions and civic society and provides a few incentives for countries to diversify their economies. Let's not forget that Islamic terror is largely funded by oil revenues coming from Saudi Arabia and other oil rich Arab Gulf States.

[RusIvan]

He defended Molotov-Ribbentrop on 60th anniversary of Victory in Europe in WWII. ==

Defended on 60th anniversary?:)) It is distortion Sergey.
Can you read russian? If yes then find Putin speeches and see first hand.
He is not defend it. He just said that it was such times and someone who seek "special" appologies from someone has better first hand look on itself.

[RusIvan]

Corrupt and autocratic regimes in Russia, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Venezuella and other places are in power mostly because of the constant flow of oil dollars. ==

You equal Russia with Nigeria? Serge do you ever travel to Nigeria? If not then you don't know what you talking about:))))>.

For your information Sergey Russia does R&D on fule cell elements. Norilsk nickel corporation finnace it since they produces nickel needed for hydrogen fuel cells.
SO during 5 years Russia will start production of those fuel cells.

Second thing, russian scientists participate in new europian project of thermonuclier reactor. Accually whole design is former soviet-russian Tokamak. DO you know what is it?
If not firstly go educate yourself then start to equal Russia and Nigeria:)).

Lukasz if you NASA scientist as you told then maybe you understand what I talk about? May be you tell sense into Sergey?

[sergey1973]

Poland also did its share of wrongs when it took Czech lands in 1938. But it did not massacred Czech officers or other citizens. See the difference ?

If Russia is not Soviet Union, why Putin does not want to acknowledge the Soviet Crimes and tries to whitewash it ? He does when he tries to avoid mentioning Molotov-Ribbentrop altogether. So RusIvan, maybe it's time you stop playing Putin defence and start comparing the facts yourself.

[sergey1973]

I'm not comparing Russia and Nigeria. I simply say that regimes in these countries are propped up by oil dollar flows and it provides little incentives to diversify economies. If you could stop defending Putin at every corner, our discussion could go far better.

[anonymoussierra]

:}}}}}}}}"You are not the only one. Technology moves with sounding speed just give some time. Rus I will respond to your post as well let me address something here; politician role is too put wedge between people; either they wouldn't have a job. Putin is just a whacked individual with two horns up his skull (please note I only address Putin) so are some of our guys in Warsaw. I personally don't care what Putin said and will say; fact is he doesn't represent Russian people, neither Kwasniewski represents us Polish people. What they represent is governments and stubborn old grumpy guys who can't just get their act together."thank you all

[RusIvan]

Poland also did its share of wrongs when it took Czech lands in 1938. But it did not massacred Czech officers or other citizens. See the difference ? ==

Yes they didn't in 1938. But in 1920 they took soviet POWs: about 100 thousands. WHo was put into concentration camps and died there by hunger and epidemy of tifus.
Is it revelation to you Sergey? Well known fact in Russia acually.
Poles don't like even to talk about it. Keep silence.

If Russia is not Soviet Union, why Putin does not want to acknowledge the Soviet Crimes and tries to whitewash it ? ==

Soviet crimes was acknoleged about 15 years to now by desisions of first russian parlament. If you don't know that hence you go educate yourself. You have advantage to read original documents why you do not?

Putin just said that why Russia has to appologize over and over to those who did same things and same time?

[anonymoussierra]

"I'm looking forward to oil alternatives -:)))) Maybe it's premature, but I really hope for a technological breakthrough in the very near future that can allow the world to stop relying on oil as the primary source of the energy. Oil proved to be more often a curse than a blessing for the social and economic development of many countries. Corrupt and autocratic regimes in Russia, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Venezuella and other places are in power mostly because of the constant flow of oil dollars. With a few exceptions (Norway), oil impedes development of democratic institutions and civic society and provides a few incentives for countries to diversify their economies. Let's not forget that Islamic terror is largely funded by oil revenues coming from Saudi Arabia and other oil rich Arab Gulf States.""I concur"

[Lukasz]

As far as I know no one angry on result of election in Ukraine. Don't you notice where Yuschenko went in his first time foreign visit as president? Moscow.

It was political gesture towards Russia witch Kremlin ignored. Just recently “United Russia” signed strategic cooperation memorandum with Yanukovich “Regions party”. Only blind would not notice that relation between Moscow and Kiev worsened.

Russia don't support separatists.

Of course that Russia supports both Abhazja and S. Ossetia. Their leader often visiting Moscow. I wont support any mafia. Besides many Georgian lived there and in little Georgia Abhazians are only 6% of total population. Other thing that Sakashvili offering them wide autonomy.

Moldavia is same thing. Dnestri republic are populated by nonmoldavians.

There is 30% of Moldavains in Transdnistria. Again Yushchenko’s proposal offering them wide autonomy as well. Russia broke its agreement with OSCE and illegally keep troops in Moldova.

Russia goes against that when poles tells that russians are responsible for that ALONE.

Of course Poland never made such claims. Russian government often justifying Soviet crimes and your propaganda change nothing.

[Lukasz]

Yes they didn't in 1938. But in 1920 they took soviet POWs: about 100 thousands. WHo was put into concentration camps and died there by hunger and epidemy of tifus.

That is a lie, there was not any concentration camps in Poland. I know that many POW died because of hunger nut also many escaped to Eastern Prussia and probably they never came back. Well, they could chose some richer country to spread communism in.

[sergey1973]

"Yes they didn't in 1938. But in 1920 they took soviet POWs: about 100 thousands. WHo was put into concentration camps and died there by hunger and epidemy of tifus."

Yes I'm aware of Red Army Soldiers who were defeated during Soviet Polish war of 1919-1920. Their fate is tragic although they died in POW camps as the result of epidemic (Local civilians are died in large numbers too). Plus don't forget that they were technically agressors who wanted to make Poland "Red".

The Soviet Bolsheviks had a slogan that was something like this "On the bones of White Poland we'll bring the fire of revolution to the Western Europe". So the Red Army was stopped by Polish Nationalist forces from spreading Bolshevism with all its accolates (mass murders, deliberate starvation, property confiscations, arbitrary arrests and executions, etc.) to Poland and then to the Rest of Europe. Surely the fate of ordinary soldiers should be remembered. It's an essence of humanity to remember the fallen in war no matter what cause they faught for. But it's not the same as deliberately shooting thousands of Polish officers and definitely its not the same as deliberately murdering millions and millions of Soviet Citizens (Russians, Ukrainians, etc) for belonging to "enemy classes" for being "enemies of people", etc.

[RusIvan]

I know that many POW died because of hunger nut also many escaped to Eastern Prussia and probably they never came back==

You know Lucasz what Stalin answered when general Anders (do you know who he is?) asked him first time about those polish POWs?
Stalin said: "Many escaped through Chukotka to America and probably they never came back." DOn't you see some resemblance here?:((

[RusIvan]

As far as I know no one angry on result of election in Ukraine. Don't you notice where Yuschenko went in his first time foreign visit as president? Moscow.

It was political gesture towards Russia witch Kremlin ignored.==

How you may know that Lucasz? DO you member of Yuschenko team? Ar eyou his advisor?
I think not. Hence you just bla bla:)). Whose then spead a propaganda here?
I'm just opposite always trying to prove my points by facts. You are not. Any people who has brains will understand.

[Lukasz]

Do you see pink arrows directed to Eastern Prussia (Prusy Wschodnie), this is Soviet army.

[sergey1973]

"That is a lie, there was not any concentration camps in Poland. I know that many POW died because of hunger nut also many escaped to Eastern Prussia and probably they never came back. Well, they could chose some richer country to spread communism in."

Lukasz--where the Soviet Russian POW's were kept then ? In Private Polish homes ? In Pilsudski headquarters ? There surely were POW camps and quite a number of Russian Red Army soldiers died there during epidemy. So let's not rewrite history. Certainly, Soviet Russian POW's were representatives of an agressive power who wanted to spread Bolshevism in Poland and E. Europe, so its wrong to equate their fate with the fate of the victims of communism. Nevertheless, it does not mean that we should not have any respect to the war dead even if they fought for completely wrong cause.

[RusIvan]

So the Red Army was stopped by Polish Nationalist forces from spreading Bolshevism with all its accolates (mass murders, deliberate starvation, property confiscations, arbitrary arrests and executions, etc.) to Poland and then to the Rest of Europe.==

They did it good. But unfortunately they was so preoccupied with creation of Great Poland from sea to sea ("ot mozha do mozha") that they just swallowed chunk of ukranian and bellorussin lands which bolshevicks smartly bribed them with.
They could break whole bolshevick regime but just was duped and bribed by bolshevicks. And stupidly they let bolshevick regime live.

Later in 1939 Stalin revenged and they payed for thier stupidity.

Let them so be resentful on bolshevick regime and shortsightness of thier leader- "pan Pilsudskii" but they are angry with russians! How so I cann't understand.:))
I realize now why so many anecdotes about poles roam United States:).

[Lukasz]

Lukasz--where the Soviet Russian POW's were kept then ?

They were kept in camps but not in concentration camps. Lukasz--where the Soviet Russian POW's were kept then ?

They were kept in camps but not in concentration camps. Maybe Pilsudski should offer them better conditions, but lets not forget that Poland regained independence in 1918 and since that time we have only war. Poland was poor and probably because of that they decided to fed first Poles and then invaders army.

[sergey1973]

"They could break whole bolshevick regime but just was duped and bribed by bolshevicks. And stupidly they let bolshevick regime live. "

Well--it's not that simple. Many White Guard Army leaders (Kolchak, Denikin) were against independent Polish State, so there was a wariness on a Polish side to ally themselves with the Russian White Guards. The same with Finnish Nationalist General Mannerheim. Finland was also part of Russian empire that broke from Russia in 1918. When Mannerheim came to power in 1918 after crushing its own Red Guard, he offered Russian White Guard the help in capturing Petrograd (St. Petersburg) from Bolsheviks. However the Russian White Guard did not want any part of Russian Empire to become independent and they did not give Mannerheim guarantees that they would respect Finnish Independence after Bolsheviks are crushed. This inflexibility and outright stupidity of White guard played a big role in not creating a unifying front against Bolsheviks. Hundreds of millions of people had to pay with their lives because of this stuborness and the refusal to acknowledge the reality.

[RusIvan]

Poland was poor and probably because of that they decided to fed first Poles and then invaders army.
==

Let us project your logic.

Soviet Union people was even poorer. Then Stalin decided istead of killing by hunger those polish POWS it is mrcier to shoot them.

It is your logic Lucasz.