Posted on 07/24/2003 1:55:39 PM PDT by Mr.Atos
I was just lisening to Medved debating Creationism with Athiests on the air. I found it interesting that while Medved argued his side quite effectively from the standpoint of faith, his opponents resorted to condescension and beliitled him with statements like, "when it rains, is that God crying?" I was reminded of the best (at least most amusing)debate that I have ever heard on the subject of Creationism vs Evolution, albeit a fictional setting. It occurred on the show, Friends of all places between the characters Pheobe (The Hippy) and Ross (The Paleontologist). It went like this...
Pheebs: Okay...it's very faint, but I can still sense him in the building...GO INTO THE LIGHT MR. HECKLES!!
Ross: Whoa, whoa, whoa. What, uh, you don't believe in evolution? Pheebs: Nah. Not really. Ross: You don't believe in evolution? Pheebs: I don't know. It's just, ya know, monkeys, Darwin, ya know, it's a, it's a nice story. I just think it's a little too easy.
Ross: Uh, excuse me. Evolution is not for you to buy, Phoebe. Evolution is scientific fact. Like, like, the air we breathe, like gravity... Pheebs: Uh, okay, don't get me started on gravity.
Ross: You uh, you don't believe in gravity? Pheebs: Well, it's not so much that ya know, like I don't *believe* in it, ya know. It's just...I don't know. Lately I get the feeling that I'm not so much being pulled down, as I am being pushed.
Ross: How can you NOT BELIEVE in evolution? Pheebs: [shrugs] I unh-huh...Look at this funky shirt!!
Ross: Well, there ya go. Pheebs: Huh. So now, the REAL question is: who put those fossils there, and why...?
Ross: OPPOSABLE THUMBS!! Without evolution, how do YOU explain OPPOSABLE THUMBS?!? Pheebs: Maybe the overlords needed them to steer their spacecrafts!
Pheebs: Uh-oh! Scary Scientist Man!
Pheebs: Okay, Ross? Could you just open your mind like, *this* much?? Okay? Now wasn't there a time when the brightest minds in the world believed that the Earth was flat? And up until what, like, fifty years ago, you all thought the atom was the smallest thing, until you split it open, and this like, whole mess o' crap came out! Now, are you telling me that you are so unbelievably arrogant that you can't admit that there's a teeny, tiny possibility that you could be wrong about this?!?
Pheebs: I can't believe you caved. Ross: What? Pheebs: You just ABANDONED your whole belief system! I mean, before, I didn't agree with you, but at least I respected you. Ross: But uh.. Pheebs: Yeah...how...how are you gonna go in to work tomorrow? How...how are you gonna face the other science guys? How...how are you gonna face yourself? Oh! [Ross runs away dejected] Pheebs: That was fun. So who's hungry?
| I wish to extend an offer to draw up an agreement. The draft to be proffered by Alamo-Girl, the draft be posted in this thread, and to be refined by all parties willing to afterwards sign and abide by that agreement. The agreement will consist of accepted guidelines and the protections of all who sign will be shared amongst us all and enforced by us all. The final agreement will be put up on more than one website and distributed to all to make sure it isn't altered without the consent of all signators. Any newbies coming into the crevo threads, when their behavior appears to violate the agreement, will be given an opportunity to sign on and partake of its protections and blessings. Perhaps we can start a groundswell that exemplifies the true nature of Conservatives in their incessant desire to resolve issues rather than foment them. Cash aka ALS |
My apologies to anyone whom I forgot to ping
For me, there is no possible truce until we have a firm, fair, and specific definition of what constitutes "Christian bashing". I am tired of the games being played, where it seems that simply disputing that Genesis is a literal account of Creation is sufficient to generate accusations of bigotry.
A "Love your enemies," and "Turn the other cheek" placemarker.
If we don't, will we hurt the feelings of "science"? As the man said in Cool Hand Luke, "What we have heeya is a failya to communicate."
Unfortunately, I do not believe the proposed "no bashing" agreement can work. That's why they use MODERATORS in real debates, and that's why I will employ the ADMIN MODERATOR when the abuse occurs. That has much more force than a mutual agreement.
I think it's a tie between AG and betty boop. I think in high school they were voted most likely to be gracious.
Probability: zero.
we kill em ;)
I understand your concern, but the problem with pinging admin-moderators is that they have no interest in involving themselves in these crevo threads. Once admin-mods are pinged a few times, they simply pull the threads and all is lost.
Your compilation of the evidence omits to mention that I and Aric remember posting direct links to RWP's CV page to ALS. You are oddly credulous that only evos and not ALS could read RWP's CV page, and that he slandered RWP as an impostor from June 8 to yesterday as a result of that inability to notice or read links plainly visible to everyone else.
Alternate reality is key to creo reasoning. Why do creos like to preface their posts with "The elephant in the room that nobody's talking about is ... [DNA, complexity, transitionals, frozen mammoths]?" Nobody can ignore an elephant like a creo. Nobody at all.
Comment: The only way this can be resolved is if RWP accepts the apology. Since he refuses to do, nothing further should be said from the ALS camp. At the point of apology, the weight is transferred IMHO.
There's natural stupidity and there's cultivated stupidity. A highly cultivated response!
Comment: This is religious discrimination and is wrong in every respect (1st Amendment and others). It is the offense which is called “Christian bashing” and will surely continue to incite flame wars.
Insisting on real science in science class and correcting the bad science of people who promulgate it is not "Christian bashing." Criticizing ALS, although he says he is a Christian, is not Christian-bashing in the widely-recognized sense. The bashing of militant creationists in general is not Christian-bashing, even if we ignore the existence of Muslim and Hindu creationists. There are just too many people who think they are Christians who don't attack evolution.
If criticizing ALS in particular is to be accepted as Christian-bashing, then I repeat that he gives Christian-bashing a good name. Such brazen dishonesty should make anyone recoil with horror at being a Christian if he is the unassailable example.
In keeping with the preceding, let's look at where you arrive farther along:
An offer is on the table from the ALS side to stop all flames if the evos will stop bashing Christians (see above complaint.) That is the best solution.
Omitting names, I will post a sample of freepmail opinions on this matter:
Correspondent 1:You can probably guess that I'm in full agreement with the preceding opinions. This ain't gonna play in Peoria, A-G. You're wearing too many funny blinders, and it's a shame. You'll never get them off. You don't want them off. We can only guess the color of the sky on your planet. You're not dealing with half of what's out there in plain sight.
any opposition to a literal interpretation of Genesis is "Christian bashing." Any opposition to "creation science" is "Christian bashing." Any advocacy of evolution is "Christian bashing." Any evolution-oriented thread at all is posted solely for the purpose of "Christian bashing." That's the deal. That's what ALS wants you to accept in exchange for his truce. Just give up your mind to him and all will be well.Correspondent 2:
Under no conditions will I agree to to allowing the anti-science crowd, [names snipped to spare the easily offended] ... etc. to dictate my comments on scientific matters.
Comment: The “who” in the issue is not the point, at least to me, the fact that anybody would actually want a thread pulled is.
Bizzare, the things you miss! If I hadn't been studying the phenomenon for four years now, it would be spooky. I didn't hit "Abuse" to get the thread pulled. I'm rather disgusted that such is all Jim Rob seems willing to do anymore.
The post I flagged has been reproduced by its proud poster here, in the last boxed quote. In the past, hitting "Abuse" on such a post would get the post pulled, and probably the poster. Such would have been a good idea in this case.
The "Abuse" button is now all but useless on crevo threads, unless you actually do intend to disappear the thread and nothing more. That was not known back on the night of June 8th. That's when we started to find out, and it's been bad news.
Comment: We must correct our own mistakes openly. And we should also let a website know if the information they carry is in error and if they refuse to make the correction, to cease relying on that website as a source. Additionally, it is always helpful to check the sources and look for confirmations from other, unrelated and credible websites.
Finally, something totally right! OK, I still use TalkOrigins even though one study cited in one of their articles has been undermined by a later study. I keep hoping they'll update the page in question. Anyone should be able to see the importance of staying square with the known facts. But there wouldn't be this discussion if everyone did.
Comment: There have been many accusations of “liar” coming from both sides. I believe it is time to close the door on all past accusations –– and resolve from this point forward not to call someone a liar unless you have clear proof of the intent to deceive. Most especially, it would be important to not bring forward past accusations.
No one's holding their breath at this point expecting you to notice that ALS's mocking, japing dance spews falsehoods by the hour if not the minute.
Why not use the Pavlov's Dog approach? That's where people learn to keep themselves under control after having their threads repeatedly pulled? I like that solution myself.
Sorry, but I won't sign on to any new age mysticism, nor will I prostitute my science, nor will I engage the wishes of the disruptors.
"I think it's a tie between AG and betty boop. I think in high school they were voted most likely to be gracious."
Agreed, my bad
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