Pheobe Debates The Theory of Evolution

Original scene from the show... Friends. ^ | NA | NA

[Mr.Atos]

I was just lisening to Medved debating Creationism with Athiests on the air. I found it interesting that while Medved argued his side quite effectively from the standpoint of faith, his opponents resorted to condescension and beliitled him with statements like, "when it rains, is that God crying?" I was reminded of the best (at least most amusing)debate that I have ever heard on the subject of Creationism vs Evolution, albeit a fictional setting. It occurred on the show, Friends of all places between the characters Pheobe (The Hippy) and Ross (The Paleontologist). It went like this...

Pheebs: Okay...it's very faint, but I can still sense him in the building...GO INTO THE LIGHT MR. HECKLES!!

Ross: Whoa, whoa, whoa. What, uh, you don't believe in evolution? Pheebs: Nah. Not really. Ross: You don't believe in evolution? Pheebs: I don't know. It's just, ya know, monkeys, Darwin, ya know, it's a, it's a nice story. I just think it's a little too easy.

Ross: Uh, excuse me. Evolution is not for you to buy, Phoebe. Evolution is scientific fact. Like, like, the air we breathe, like gravity... Pheebs: Uh, okay, don't get me started on gravity.

Ross: You uh, you don't believe in gravity? Pheebs: Well, it's not so much that ya know, like I don't *believe* in it, ya know. It's just...I don't know. Lately I get the feeling that I'm not so much being pulled down, as I am being pushed.

Ross: How can you NOT BELIEVE in evolution? Pheebs: [shrugs] I unh-huh...Look at this funky shirt!!

Ross: Well, there ya go. Pheebs: Huh. So now, the REAL question is: who put those fossils there, and why...?

Ross: OPPOSABLE THUMBS!! Without evolution, how do YOU explain OPPOSABLE THUMBS?!? Pheebs: Maybe the overlords needed them to steer their spacecrafts!

Pheebs: Uh-oh! Scary Scientist Man!

Pheebs: Okay, Ross? Could you just open your mind like, *this* much?? Okay? Now wasn't there a time when the brightest minds in the world believed that the Earth was flat? And up until what, like, fifty years ago, you all thought the atom was the smallest thing, until you split it open, and this like, whole mess o' crap came out! Now, are you telling me that you are so unbelievably arrogant that you can't admit that there's a teeny, tiny possibility that you could be wrong about this?!?

Pheebs: I can't believe you caved. Ross: What? Pheebs: You just ABANDONED your whole belief system! I mean, before, I didn't agree with you, but at least I respected you. Ross: But uh.. Pheebs: Yeah...how...how are you gonna go in to work tomorrow? How...how are you gonna face the other science guys? How...how are you gonna face yourself? Oh! [Ross runs away dejected] Pheebs: That was fun. So who's hungry?

[BMCDA]

Of course this analogy is not perfect but it's a nice illustration of a cloud of points scattered around a local maxium. That's why I tried to explain that these bugs in my example do not fly around like real bugs but maintain their position. They only generate new "bugs" or points (if you like that better) in their vicinity.
So this only looks like a swarm of bugs following a light bulb especially if you simulate this scenario with a high number of bugs/points and at a high speed.

[js1138]

No, it is partly a matter of my coming right to the point. Evolutionists do not like to be asked to back things up, and seldom do.

I have watched these discussions for quite a while, seen responses to you that were ignored. And yes, I've seen your stuff ignored also. But of all the posters I've seen, you are among the most defensive and thin skinned.

It really isn't about winning. It's about presenting a good case, listening to criticism, revising your case. If you have a good case, you don't need to spend any time saying it's good. trust the lurkers to judge it.

[gore3000]

If your ideas are being ridiculed, stand up for them by re-explaining them. That does not include blanket statements that major evo scientists are racists, communists, nazis.

I do not make such blanket statements. On this very thread I can give you the example of Darwin's dishonesty in Post # 736. As to the rest, I have pointed out numerous examples where the theory of evolution is inherently racist as well as that there are vast similarities between its claims and those made by the Nazis, and I can do so again if you wish.

As to whether such is relevant or not, that is perhaps due to a difference of opinion between the two of us - I strongly believe that truth and morals are very tightly joined. I have a lifetime of experience to back it up. However, let me give an example which all can understand even if they do not agree with it. Neither Communism, Nazism, nor Clintonism would have been possible without massive lying and massive dishonesty. I doubt that few would deny that what they did was horrible and immoral. So whether you or others agree with my contention that truth and morals go together, you cannot deny that I have a strong case for it being so.

[VadeRetro]

solid in 933: ... I'm interested to debate this further. I look forward to the replies.

js1138: Just as soon as we all get out of therapy...

We don't have to worry about debating "solid." 933 is gone now, and no such freeper. What did he/she even say?

I'm guessing a returning bannee here?

[Heartlander]

OK… Wow… and … Ummm…
I’m reading through the posts here… I’m glad things are civil now, but I do feel that Alamo-Girl and BettyBoop were attacked without cause (and I am not saying others were not).

Guilt by association is just labeling people; creationist, atheist, Christian, IDist, Marxist, neo-Darwinist, naturalist, troll, liberal, witchdoctor, Luddite – (and I am not without fault in this matter).

I would say that asking someone to police others after years of petty attacks by both sides is silly though…

[gore3000]

But of all the posters I've seen, you are among the most defensive and thin skinned.

Really? The evolutionists start whining at the slightest remark that shows them to be wrong. Even saying they are wrong they consider an insult. I have gone through hundreds of posts without responding in kind to insults in just about every single post made to me. And I do not respond from anger, I respond because one cannot allow character assassination of the kind hurled at me to go unnoticed. Silence is taken by some to mean assent, and one cannot assent to character assassination.

Her's the reason why - when one cannot deny the truth the only defense is to destroy the credibility of the person making the statement:

You know what I've seen?
I've seen killers walk free because the eyewitnness was an alcoholic.
I've seen sex offenders that could not be touched because the witness was a call girl.
Credibility
It's the only currency that means anything on this kind of playing field.
Dean's got the tape and he is going to come out with it and when he does I want his credibility.
I want people to know he's lying before they hear what he says.
John Voight (Reynolds) in "Enemy of the State'

So that's why I have to answer the insults, not because I like to, but because I have to.

[RadioAstronomer]

I trust that you would not tell anybody to their face that their religion is a "silly superstition," regardless of your heartfelt beliefs.

A) It was a rhetorical question.

B) I don't hold that belief.

C) It was used as an example of attacking an argument instead of a poster/freeper.

D) I did not intend to offend anyone.

I was trying to come up with a litmus example. I guess I erred badly.

[gore3000]

Of course we have sunspot cycles, minor and major ice age cycles, meteor impacts, super-volcano eruptions, earthquakes, plate tectonics producing subduction and uplift, and, of course, weather pattern changes to supply all that environmental pressure.

And then there's all those evolving predator-prey relationships, bird/insect plant symbiotic relationships, foliage changes, the arising of grasslands and the spread of deciduous trees, and that's only the tip of an enormous iceberg of other environmental changes.

Yup, all true, and one of the major reasons why evolution is totally false. Look at all those changes, just look at them. How many of those environmental changes give thousands or millions of years of warning - not a one. If the species was not able to adapt to those changes beforehand it would not survive. When a crisis occurs, there is no time for mutations, gradual evolution or any such thing for one very simple reason - the dead do not procreate.

[<1/1,000,000th%]

Solid just registered today. Could've been one of ALS' "guests"?

[gore3000]

Right, and it therefore makes sense to note that it would be very unusual for there to be stability or direction sufficient to create a very complex organ/

Yup, You can search high and low for evolutionist explanations of how complex organs arise - you will not find them.

And no, Darwin did not show that the eye evolved. In fact his statement during the discussion that "His reason ought to conquer his imagination" shows quite well that he did not show that the eye evolved.

[AndrewC]

Of course this analogy is not perfect but it's a nice illustration of a cloud of points scattered around a local maxium.

But I think that is what we are discussing from different vantage points. If the "attractor" is strong enough for stability it will drive the objects towards the stable point, all of them. If it is not strong then things will be flying off left and right towards other "attractors". if it is even weaker, nothing will form as the objects will be torn away continually towards other stable points. It must be realized that the stability is in relation to the other "attractors".

[Heartlander]

In regard to insects:

"A fly has, on average 350,000 neurons," he said. "Most of them dedicated to processing sensory information."

Two-thirds to three-quarters of the brain are devoted to the eyes alone. It flies with great dexterity and precision, using only some of the remaining neurons. And yet, packed into this relatively small bunch of brain cells are all the instructions for flight maneuvers. Unlike mammals or birds, the fly doesn't have to learn anything.

"When a fly breaks out of its pupa, it can fly as well as it ever will," he said. Human beings seem to think that being constructed so that people learn complex behaviors is a superior life plan, Dr. Dickinson said. But it was an equally challenging evolutionary problem to make a brain about the size of a poppy seed, in the case of the fruit fly, "that can do everything in the behavioral repertory of a fly."

Source - What Really Happens When Fruit Flies Fly?

[Aric2000]

I like Brunettes, and I'll be darned if I ended up with a daughter with Blonde hair, a daughter with dirty blonde hair, and a son with brownish red hair. If I didn't know better, I would think that they were the postmans kids or something.

Anyway, My eldest has the dirty Blonde hair, like my grandmother, my youngest daughter has blond hair like my other grandmother, and my son has my fathers hair color.

Just BIZARRE!! Genetic mutation is just bizarre. The different genetic variants that create totally different looking children from the same parents convinces me of the truth of evolution, because if different genes did not mutate or become the dominant, all of my children would look like little clones to each other. They don't, so what does that tell us?

[Aric2000]

Like I said, I was playing at the lake, I'll try for the next one.

And it was hot here 95 degrees. UGH, that lake was nice though, 79 degree water, warmest I have ever felt it in the last 30 years.

[Heartlander]

Genetic mutation is just bizarre.

This is not Darwin, it is Mendel. FWIW…

[js1138]

So whether you or others agree with my contention that truth and morals go together, you cannot deny that I have a strong case for it being so.

I invite you to analyze your posts. You spend far more time asserting that you have made a case than you do making the case. And as you might expect, I do not agree that Darwin was dishonest or racist, nor do I believe evolution is racist. (hint: if it were, African Americans would be marching at your side)

[Aric2000]

This was just too funny, so I had to post it.

A friend of mine is Wiccan, and thought that I would get a kick out of it. I thought that you guys would too.

All of you christians, please do not get offended, it's a joke, OK?


Too good to pass up

So, I'm standing at a bus stop and they pull up. A car load of well
meaning, bible thumping nut cases that are just frantic! The middle
aged professionally dressed woman rushes forward...she takes my arm
and with trembling voice, she asks, "Have you found Jesus?" Her eyes
plead with an urgency that is out of proportion to a bus stop.

Now, normally I just politely decline the sermon and free religious
paperwork that such folk pawn off on unsuspecting by-standers. But,
unfortunately for her, she is the fourth car to accost me in the last
9 minutes. So by now I'm beginning to wonder what the heck is wrong
with these people. I mean if it's not Christians, it's the Jehovah's
Witnesses. Can a simple Druid get no peace?

So calmly as I can muster, without being sarcastic, I reply, "You
people lost him, again??"

The woman looks confused. This is not the response she was hoping for
and she needs to regroup. She takes a deep breath intending to launch
into her sales pitch for her God, and church, paying no heed to the
concept that I might not be into being converted. I decide to not let
her get going so I launch into a speech of my own.

"What is wrong with you Christians? Every time I turn around you've
lost Him!" I hit her with a glare of accusation. "I mean really..." I
take a measured breath. "How do you expect to have anyone follow a
deity that you can't even find!"

The poor woman looks stunned. This isn't going so good. Panicked she
looks desperately to the car...surely one of the men can help.
Undaunted I press on... "Maybe the problem is with you people. I mean
Muslims never seem to lose their deity. Come to think of it, neither
do Jews or Pagans of any kind."

I look at the man getting out of the car. He's all smiles. "I realize
you people used to burn people like me at the stake. What was that
about...deity even? I may be a Pagan-heathen, but I have never ever
woke up panicked that I couldn't find my Goddess or God. They are
always right where they should be... In the fire of my candle, in the
air that I breath, in the earth that I stand on, in the water of my
spring. I never feel abandoned by my deity(ies).

"Of course, you Christians aren't much fun," I continue. By now they
are all out of the car. Befuddled, aghast, and at a loss for words.
"Of course," I offer trying to give them some defense for losing
Jesus. "He could have left due to religious differences. If I remember
correctly, He was Jewish. So if you're really so eager to find him,"
I smile gently to soften the blow, "check the nearest synagogue. He's
probably in there. Also, you folks should try and remember that this
is America...where freedom of religion means ALL religions."

Slowly they climb back into their car and drive away.

I stand at the bus stop... No pamphlets, no bible, no dogma. I haven't
found Jesus, but I haven't lost him either. :)

[js1138]

How many of those environmental changes give thousands or millions of years of warning - not a one.

It's truely amazing that there haven't been any mass extinctions.

[Aric2000]

LOL, you are bad!!

[Aric2000]

1100?