The Unmaking of Conservatism

http://www.sobran.com/columns/2003/030424.shtml ^

[billbears]

Joke it up sunshine. But the difference between 10,000 men enforcing unconstitutional laws and 5,000 men doing it is the same thing. The laws are unconstitutional and it's still pulling tax dollars out of my pocket

[hchutch]

Thank you for exposing what your really seem to think about some of these people.

You prove just what I have suspected about the paleos all along. They seem to think some folks can't handle freedom due to an accident of birth that has them living in Tehran as opposed to New York.

On the other hand, neo-conservatives happen to have the strange notion that Thomas Jefferson meant what he wrote when he said "all men are created equal" and had inalienable rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" - rights that came from God, not any government.

You grossly underestimate those people. Take a look at Eastern Europe and Japan if you want to see how wrong you are about how well people can handle freedom.

[Cincinatus]

You're confusing the decay of a culture (to which we, supposedly superior white Americans are immune, although clearly we are not) with an inability of people to embrace the concepts of freedom, limited government, and democratic pluralism.

But that's OK -- I know where you're coming from. Exactly where you're coming from.

[sheltonmac]

One could make the argument that we are simply casting pearls before swine, but these are things that need to be said. Until we actually see a decrease in the size and scope of government, all their talk about the importance of winning elections is meaningless. What difference will my vote make if, either way, I'm guaranteed a leader who will continue to push for bigger government? At least Democrats are honest about their desire to see government grow.

NO matter how they try to present it, government expansion with a Republican majority in Washington is still government expansion. Why is that such a difficult concept for some people to grasp? With some of the lame arguments presented here you'd think these people would actually take pleasure in being smashed over the head with a hammer as long as it was a Republican wielding the hammer. It just doesn't make any sense.....or maybe I'm just too stupid to see the brilliance of their logic.

[hchutch]

Yup, and it rejects the very ideals upon which Thomas Jefferson wrote one of the most influenetial documents in history, if you want my unvarnished opinion.

[JohnGalt]

If you subscribe to the French theory of rights as abstractions rather than tradtions, you are correct.

[Consort]

But the difference between 10,000 men enforcing unconstitutional laws and 5,000 men doing it is the same thing.

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10,000 people cost a lot more of your tax dollars than does 5,000.

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The laws are unconstitutional and it's still pulling tax dollars out of my pocket

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No law is unconstitutional until it is declared to be so. All laws on the books have to be obeyed, and enforced at a cost, even if they are "unconstitutional", until repealed or declared unconstitutional.

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And you accuse me of joking? Again, size matters.

[Temple Owl]

If all Conservatives got into the process and actually worked elections, Rino's would never survive the Republican primary process.

You have that exactly right. And proof of it is in Pennsylvania's primary where conservative Toomey has RINO Specter talking and voting like a conservative.

If we could put up real conservatives against Rinos in every primary, we'd be able to keep them in line.

[hchutch]

The Declaration of Independence refutes your assertion. I strongyl suggest you re-read that document?

[philosofy123]

If it was not for Charles Martel the entire European Continent would have been Moslem now, and so is America!

[Grampa Dave]

Well, without a doubt, this article and the elitist writer deserve the following award:

[JohnGalt]

Which assertion?

Are you saying that Jefferson was not influenced by French Enlightment Era intellectuals?

Rights do not exist as abstractions; the best Jefferson could do was tie rights back to praxeology, which is a kin you and I both claiming the title of conservative libertarians and yet having radically different views about the rules that govern men.

[hchutch]

Amen to that.

[philosofy123]

This board is a respectable venue for exchanging ideas, not insults. If you are unable to politely discuss ther subject matter, please stay away.

[sheltonmac]

Thank you for exposing what your really seem to think about some of these people.

You prove just what I have suspected about the paleos all along. They seem to think some folks can't handle freedom due to an accident of birth that has them living in Tehran as opposed to New York.

On the other hand, neo-conservatives happen to have the strange notion that Thomas Jefferson meant what he wrote when he said "all men are created equal" and had inalienable rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" - rights that came from God, not any government.

You grossly underestimate those people. Take a look at Eastern Europe and Japan if you want to see how wrong you are about how well people can handle freedom.

And thank you for demonstrating the complete and utter ignorance neocons have when it comes to history. First of all, the ability people have to "handle freedom" depends much on the culture in which they were raised. I'm sure you've heard the example of a captive animal being set free only to end up walking around in an area the size of the cage it once inhabited.

Secondly, Thomas Jeferson not only talked about inalienable rights, but he also warned against the dangers of big government. If you leave the goal of shrinking government out of the equation (which is exactly what neocons do, since winning elections is their main objective), then it makes no difference who's in charge--the end result is the same.

Thirdly, you cannot compare apples to oranges. The success of democratic principles in countries like Japan cannot be compared to countries like Iraq. As for Eastern Europe, I wouldn't list that as a shining example of the triumph of liberty. Remember the caged animal? Most of those nations are very close to reverting back to communism.

[Consort]

Your outrage is selective.

[hchutch]

Ignorance of history?

If thoughts like your last post makes you feel better about what is, at best, stupidity, go ahead and think them. Go ahead and continue to whine. But the paleos are being seen for what they are, and they are rightly being rejected.

That must be why Sobran and others reacted so harshly to David Frum's article. The truth hit hard, and it hurt pretty bad, didn't it?

[philosofy123]

No