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The Design Inference Game
03/03/03 | Moi

Posted on 03/03/2003 8:27:25 AM PST by general_re

I thought a new thread was a good idea, and here seems to be a good place to put it, so as not to clutter up "News". The only topic available was "heated discussion", though. ;)

If any clarification about the pictures is needed, just say so, and I will try to at least highlight the part that I am interested in for you. Remember that I'm interested in the objects or structures or artifacts being represented, so don't be thrown off if the illustrations seem abstract.


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: crevolist; dembski; designinference; evolution; intelligentdesign
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To: unspun
Fine, now turn it around. Suppose you wonder in a crowded park (picture the area of the prophets from Monty Python's Life of Brian). Several people scream and gesticulate from raised platforms about their beliefs in the supernatural, the only means to your salvation (you know, your devotion and your money), and each in turn condemns you to Hell unless you pay homage. Of course, each one has a different belief, each condemns you to a different Hell, and none offer any evidence but the sound of their own voice.

Do you:
a) stop at the first one you encounter and devote your life to him, being careful to never listen to the rest of them,
b) pick one after listening to them all and then devote your life to him,
c) decide you like this whole "religion" scheme and build your own platform to attract followers,
d) have a picnic and watch them all with a proper and profound sense of humor?

221 posted on 03/08/2003 12:51:56 PM PST by balrog666 (When in doubt, tell the truth. - Mark Twain)
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To: balrog666
Chuckle.

I'm pretty confident I'd do the last (d). Or, go to a quieter place, maybe go fishing.

But then if I found that instead of requiring my attention and money, someone was humbly relating helpful hints that are touching as well as practical for me and lunch to boot, and more lunch from each basket than a basket could hold, I think I'd pay attention to all that.
222 posted on 03/08/2003 12:59:23 PM PST by unspun
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To: PatrickHenry
I really am interested to see if a consistent method employing consistent criteria can distinguish between natural and designed objects.

Well, that's more or less why we're here. At least, that's why Diamond and I are here - a discussion on metaphysics appears to have broken out among others ;)

223 posted on 03/08/2003 1:03:52 PM PST by general_re (Non serviam.)
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To: betty boop
I'm so glad you enjoyed the article! I also printed and read it again slowly offline. The subject is like Casa Casera sauce to me ... I devour it shamelessly. (LOL!)
224 posted on 03/08/2003 1:19:00 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: general_re
Well, that's more or less why we're here. At least, that's why Diamond and I are here - a discussion on metaphysics appears to have broken out among others ;)

Humph! Well, some of us are having a discussion about why we're not talking about metaphysics.

225 posted on 03/08/2003 1:19:43 PM PST by balrog666 (When in doubt, tell the truth. - Mark Twain)
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To: betty boop
Thank you so much for your post! Again, I agree with you and I do hope you post the "thought experiment!"

But what I'm talking about should be obvious to any person who has studied the operations of his own consciousness. Which is: The thinker, the "observer," the self is not a material object.

I wonder if some refuse to think about it simply because they are afraid? If so, then we have cause for hope because it would show some who refuse - already sense something lies beyond the physical, else why be afraid?

226 posted on 03/08/2003 1:26:54 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: unspun
Thank you so much for sharing your views and analysis of the Scriptures! The summary of your analysis:

...when it comes to man; his willing response of accepting God's truth about Himself (and himself) is required, however Jesus is witnessed (which varies from person to person, though He does not).


227 posted on 03/08/2003 1:34:47 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: balrog666
Mea culpa ;)
228 posted on 03/08/2003 1:58:01 PM PST by general_re (Non serviam.)
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To: balrog666; Alamo-Girl; Phaedrus; unspun; js1138; PatrickHenry; beckett; cornelis; Dataman; ...
...subjective personal experiences like finding (a) faith, seeing a ufo, having a mystical dream, having a drug induced hallucination, or even having a encounter with a ghost or the tooth fairy do not lend themselves to objective examination after the fact and, without evidence, there is no real basis or purpose to any discussion of same.

So balrogg666, let's try to find a real basis for same. Here's my little essay in that regard:

Probably people wonder what I mean about "studying the operations of one's own consciousness." It's about isolating two things: construct -- the mental operations involved -- and concept -- the content of the thought process.

Which probably sounds perfectly opaque. I can give a description of what I'm talking about by means of an anecdote; and I can tell you what that description means, to me. What I can't do is tell you what it means to you. You judge that for yourself.

Anyhoot, the anecdote. I had a lovely conversation with my husband, B., this afternoon, about what to do about his trumpet. A beautiful, classic, silver Besson B-flat trumpet that, for some 20+ years, has been getting virtually daily playing time; thus she's getting a tad "long in the tooth" by now. She's literally wearing out, naturally eroded from the inside (apparently aerosolized saliva projected at high velocities is devastating to brass over time), and thus must be replaced soon. (I'd be holding a wake for this estimable instrument, were it not for the fact that Besson, as beautiful as she is in all respects, is of French manufacture....)

So, do we buy new? Or do we restore any of several other classic horns that B owns? (All of them built in America.) And while we're at it, should we get B.'s Getzen fluegelhorn -- a "working instrument" -- refurbished while we're at it?

Which led to a consideration of the Getzen's marvelous playing qualities. She's an older horn, too; but holding up well. People just love the sound that B. gets out of that horn. (I know that, 'cause  B.'s professional peers and audience members alike have been telling us that for years. Plus I've got my own ears.)

B. said he thought the leadpipe had to be rebuilt. Then he mused about whether the horn's sound properties were attributable more to the leadpipe or to the mouthpiece. (B. is cutting-edge on mouthpiece technology.) Then I said:

"Or to both together."

He agreed that was definitely a possibility. Then I said:

"Or to you." And he said this:

"I need both in order to express my Voice in the first place." [Sorry. I just had to capitalize that "V"....]

In the course of this brief exchange of four lines, B.'s "I" had been invoked some three times: The first as a locus of judgment about the technical capability of a musical instrument; the second as will (recognizing and effecting the means to satisfy the need identified in that judgment); the third as Voice -- the reason why the other two foregoing problems have significance in the first place. IMHO FWIW.

So I ran the "instant replay" of the immediately foregoing; and B. saw what I meant.

[End of anecdote.]

Which gets us back to our original indication of the problem of construct and content, and how they relate with each other "in nature." "Leadpipe" and "mouthpiece" -- and the entire physical system "horn" of which they are parts -- constitute the construct in the above anecdote. The content is the Voice being expressed; and more than that. For the mediator between these two seems to be the free choice -- will -- made to effect the best means to bring together the physical properties needed to express a "something," the Voice, which is in its essence nonphysical. That choice is made by a non-physical thinker and willer.

If consciousness has any tangible, or "granular" quality -- as we might expect from a condition of pure "physicality";  and if it is, ultimately, attributable "merely" to particle behavior -- well, all I can say is: So far, I have not seen any evidence, let alone "proof," that demonstrates, let alone settles, the problem.

If something is physical, it ought to be "sensible" -- i.e., detectable by means of sense perception (by technological extension as necessary). But it seems that most of cutting-edge physical theory right now is not in the least bit interested in the problem of consciousness -- the problem of the observer, and his/her/its impact on "the measurement problem" of quantum theory.

It seems to me there are real things that are not "sensible" at all, in the conventional sense. They have to be seen and understood from a perspective that is not limited by the constraints of pure physicality, if they are to be seen and understood at all.

229 posted on 03/08/2003 2:21:14 PM PST by betty boop
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To: betty boop
Just as I said in #148: "And while that may not make them any less real to the person involved, it limits any real discussion of them to vague analogy and meaningless philosophical noise."

When you rely on analogy, the interpretation is totally subjective.

It seems to me there are real things that are not "sensible" at all, in the conventional sense.

Indeed, although we may disagree about which are which.

They have to be seen and understood from a perspective that is not limited by the constraints of pure physicality, if they are to be seen and understood at all.

If such a perspective exists and produces insight, I'm all for it. But then, that is the question isn't it?

230 posted on 03/08/2003 2:41:56 PM PST by balrog666 (When in doubt, tell the truth. - Mark Twain)
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To: balrog666
How does evolution ---

spontaneous (( out of nothing ))-- morphing (( plastic // rubber )) ... matter and lfe become science // physics ---

silly isn't it !

231 posted on 03/08/2003 2:55:21 PM PST by f.Christian (( + God =Truth + love courage // LIBERTY logic + SANITY + Awakening + ))
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To: balrog666; betty boop; Alamo-Girl
Do people have more than one way of consider things? Are certain ways of considering relevant to information that is of the realms with which they naturally deal?
232 posted on 03/08/2003 3:05:22 PM PST by unspun
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To: Dataman
Nice piece of reasoning there, JS. Let's apply that to the much older, primitive and debunked theory of Darwin:

We do it all the time. No one goes to Darwin to study the mechanisms of inheritance or variation.

233 posted on 03/08/2003 3:20:07 PM PST by js1138
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To: betty boop
If consciousness has any tangible, or "granular" quality -- as we might expect from a condition of pure "physicality"; and if it is, ultimately, attributable "merely" to particle behavior -- well, all I can say is: So far, I have not seen any evidence, let alone "proof," that demonstrates, let alone settles, the problem.

The problem I have with your argument is the unspoken and unproven assumption that physicality is "mere".

234 posted on 03/08/2003 4:10:26 PM PST by js1138
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To: js1138
Mere placemarker.
235 posted on 03/08/2003 4:31:58 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas)
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To: PatrickHenry
I really am interested to see if a consistent method employing consistent criteria can distinguish between natural and designed objects.

So am I:^).

I'm having real difficulty coming up with a coherent, consistent distinction between "designed" and "natural object". I'm not even sure if that is the proper distinction because one of the questions I have been wrestling with in trying to solve these problems is whether or not there even any such thing as a "non-natural object". Maybe things such as numbers, propositions, and thoughts, etc. are, but that possibility is not helping me very much with this test:^)

Cordially,

236 posted on 03/08/2003 6:08:24 PM PST by Diamond
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To: Diamond
Well, the entire enterprise of Intelligent Design is riding on your performance here. So relax.
237 posted on 03/08/2003 6:15:29 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas)
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To: js1138
The problem I have with your argument is the unspoken and unproven assumption that physicality is "mere".

In this context, "mere" is not a term of approbrium. It "merely" signals the interjection of a relative term into the argument. At the level of the problem we are considering here, "mere" is not fundadamental. All it does is suggest the idea of a hierarchical order of which it is not a determinant, just a result that might be evaluated relative to other results. That is, "mere" takes its place in the scale of a larger scheme.

But that is not to say that I think physicality is king. For all you or I know, physicality is a "mere" epiphenomenon of Reality.

If you disagree, then I welcome hearing your counterargument.

238 posted on 03/08/2003 7:53:17 PM PST by betty boop
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To: balrog666
If such a perspective exists and produces insight, I'm all for it. But then, that is the question isn't it?

Yep. That be the question, balrog666. I have answered it for myself; I can't answer it for you. You have to do your own work here, assuming you are so inclined. If not, the world keeps on turning regardless, and we all with it in despite.

239 posted on 03/08/2003 8:02:24 PM PST by betty boop
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To: betty boop
Thank you so much for your post and for the great analogy!

It seems to me there are real things that are not "sensible" at all, in the conventional sense. They have to be seen and understood from a perspective that is not limited by the constraints of pure physicality, if they are to be seen and understood at all.

Absolutely!

In the flesh, I thought I had experienced love, joy, peace, gentleness and harmony. But when I first was in the spirit, I discovered that I never truly experienced or understood any of it.

And there is so much more that cannot be expressed in words, much less understood by the constraints of pure physicality.

240 posted on 03/08/2003 8:09:30 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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