Posted on 03/03/2003 8:27:25 AM PST by general_re
I thought a new thread was a good idea, and here seems to be a good place to put it, so as not to clutter up "News". The only topic available was "heated discussion", though. ;)
If any clarification about the pictures is needed, just say so, and I will try to at least highlight the part that I am interested in for you. Remember that I'm interested in the objects or structures or artifacts being represented, so don't be thrown off if the illustrations seem abstract.
Yeah, maybe so, balrog666. But then again, maybe the real point to consider is that we inevitably become the way that we think. I'm not saying that's the whole story. But I can't help but consider it is a rather large part of the story: the very part that's more or less "in our control."
Anyhoot, I'm convinced you have a larger purpose in this life than the mere preparation of yourself as a suitable meal for worms. You've got better options than that. IMHO FWIW.
Rather than the experimental approach to accreting "proof" incrementally, it may be more fruitful to take the Aristotelian approach, and simply assume a Prime Mover or First Cause of everything that is, and then see if there's anything we come across that disconfirms or refutes our universal premise.
That would make sense to me, too; however as you say But this would be the very approach that is most strenuously avoided these days as thoroughly "unscientific."
On the very long thread I offered a hypothesis with methods of falsification, as follows:
Falsifications: That such algorithms or information content do not exist - or that such algorithms or information content can arise from null.
After about 3000 posts on the big thread (and a lot of research since) - I remain convinced it is a good layperson's scientific hypothesis to determine intelligent design.
Being is the larger context in which we live and move and have, not only our being, as the Scriptures tell us, but also our very earthly existence. Being is larger than our earthly existence, encompassing it. Being is Truth, existence its "shadow."
Absolutely! I don’t think I could agree with you more. On personal experience, I assert that being is the spirit, which does not exist solely within space/time and does not require the body. Getting “into” the spirit is the only method of worship (John 4:24) – all of us who worship in spirit know the difference. The body is immaterial; the thought, emotion and language soar.
Eternity is being outside of the dimensions of space and time. There can be no sense of time passing in eternity, no concept of distance or size. When I am “in” the spirit, I sense being part of a great harmony. That “sense” has directed much of my research whether Scripture, Physics, Math or whatever.
As Einstein once said: Reality is an illusion, albeit a persistent one.
BMCDA, you say you do not wish to be eternal. I pray you change you mind. Perhaps you could stop for an hour and be completely still, don’t think, but just listen and see if you can “sense” being outside of your body. Nevertheless, if you wish an end, it can be granted in what is called the second death in Revelation.
In case my mind is preserved I can't imagine existing forever in this supernatural realm, however nice and pleasant it may be there but if my mind is manipulated or even ereased then we're no longer speaking about me anymore so whatever happens to this supernatural medium - call it soul or whatever you want - happens to somebody else.
Of course I don't mind living longer than the ~80-90 years and I'd really enjoy seeing loved ones that died before me but I don't believe that this or similar scenarios will happen. It's not that I don't want an afterlife to be true but it's rather that I don't see any compelling evidence that conscious existence is possible without a brain. So whether "I" existed in some obscure unconscious state before my conception or whether I didn't exist at all before this moment is of no importance to me because I can't tell the difference.
BMCDA, you say you do not wish to be eternal.
Well, it's just as I stated above: if I'm still myself I don't want to exist forever but if I'm turned into a different "person" I couldn't care less since that's no longer me.
Perhaps you could stop for an hour and be completely still, don’t think, but just listen and see if you can “sense” being outside of your body.
It's interesting you mention this experience since I've read a lot about this kind of experiences although I've never had them myself. However, have you ever considered the possibility that these experiences are not of supernatural origin but are generated by parts of your brain?
I mean our brain is a complex organ and much is still unknown but I don't think we have to invoke supernatural explanations when dealing with such phenomena. How we perceive reality is dependant on how the different parts or our brain function and interact with each other (see split brain, temporal lobe epilepsy. In the meantime it is well known that meditation, prayers or similar practices can induce the experiences you described above (I think it's already possible to induce these experiences externally; maybe I try it out since "sensing" of being outside of my body sounds quite interesting ;^).
Especially since WW1 the effects that injuries of different parts of the brain can cause in a person have been studied and so far the possibility that our mind and the so-called spiritual experiences we may have are simply natural phenomena hasn't become less probable. Of course this doesn't disprove the existence of a supernatural realm but it also doesn't suggest that our brain is in some way connected to this realm.
Regards
Good point. The same faulty inductive method was used to "disprove" miracles.
I have decided that I do not have enough side knowledge to form an opinion as to whether object #3 gives evidence of design (apart from anthropic principle) or not.
The object is certainly complex. The picture appears to be an electron microscope image of something that reminds me of a pollen grain. It appears to be hollow. It appears that it might be or once have been organic (which would vastly increase the complexity factor). Certain other features, such as the slightly irregular and aperiodic shape and configuration of the large and small protrusions, and also what appear to be apertures, also seem to point in the direction of it being organic in nature.
The question in my mind is, what caused this object? The alternatives are chance, necessity, or design. But without being able to examine the object with more than the visual detail of a computer screen it is difficult to determine what is its substance, or to know if and/or how it acts in relation to its environment. If the object performs some function in relation to some other objects, depending on their nature, any probability calculations obviously change. Consequently it is very difficult to evaluate in any meaningful way the object's contingency or improbability, and any specification, and so to make a positive inference of design.
Cordially,
Or can even find out -- using the techniques of the scientific method, which says this problem does not exist in the first place?
Actually there are various interdisciplinary efforts to study consciousness. In addition, research continues in near death experiences.
Roger Penrose has written a series of three books on the subject of consciousness, whether it has computable properties. The first is Emperor's New Mind, the second Shadows of the Mind and the third is The large, the small, and the human mind.
Arguably, what we are does not find its root in existence.
I agree.
But nobody in their right mind would want that one, Alamo-Girl! You are speaking wryly, "tongue-in-cheek" here (I gather). For you well know that which makes us uniquely, personally self survives the destruction of the body in the first death -- which is the natural death. The second death utterly destroys the self itself (so to speak). It is the death of the spirit. In its essence, it is the utter and irreversible separation from God, the privation of light and grace; that is, it is absolute oblivion -- in the sense of God "forgetting us".... (Such is the nature of Hell....)
Well, look at me, ranting about theology -- to this audience! Of course, not a word I've said is amenable to experimental test. But mind, heart, and soul, I know it to be the truth. Oddly, it seems I was created in such a way as to be able to know this truth...and I further gather, so have all other human beings likewise. The question is, are people willing to search out this truth in the only place that it can be found -- in the depth of the soul, as mediated by consciousness?
Perhaps I can help. What do you mean by "function"?
So what is this 'being'? Is it a supernatural medium that enters the natural world at our conception (or is generated at our conception) to get recorded and then to leave the natural world to enter the supernatural realm again and exist there for ever?
Yes.
If this is the case then what happens to my mind that got presumably recorded on this supernatural medium when it leaves the natural world? Is it preserved at the transition or is it heavily altered or maybe even ereased?
It is preserved, but you also gain exponentially greater awareness and knowledge.
It's not that I don't want an afterlife to be true but it's rather that I don't see any compelling evidence that conscious existence is possible without a brain.
This is the bottom line. For those who believe that consciousness is but a physical phenomenon, there is a tendency to also believe there is no afterlife and there is also a tendency to believe that consciousness can be achieved through artificial intelligence.
Well, it's just as I stated above: if I'm still myself I don't want to exist forever but if I'm turned into a different "person" I couldn't care less since that's no longer me.
But what if you are everything you are here and much, much more?
However, have you ever considered the possibility that these experiences [getting “into” the spirit] are not of supernatural origin but are generated by parts of your brain?
I have considered it, but on personal experience I know what it is. There is no way I could ever convince you, it is virtually impossible to express in words. But if you give it a try, perhaps you will experience it as well.
I think it's already possible to induce these experiences externally; maybe I try it out since "sensing" of being outside of my body sounds quite interesting.
I do hope you give it a try! If you are able to sense your being outside your body, then you may even entertain my conclusion, i.e. that the physical brain is a transmitter/receiver for the spirit.
The question is, are people willing to search out this truth in the only place that it can be found -- in the depth of the soul, as mediated by consciousness?
Absolutely! That is what it is all about.
But nobody in their right mind would want that one, Alamo-Girl!
I really wasn't speaking tongue-in-check because anyone who truly rejects the free gift of God in Christ, or fails to diligently seek Him, is wanting to be erased. The second death, as I understand it, is not eternal torment for non-believing ordinary beings but it is eternal torment for the rebellious spiritual principalities, Satan and his fallen angels, watchers, etc.
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