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To: donh; exmarine
xm...

There are only 4 possible answers to the origins of the universe: It sprang from NOTHING (impossible since nothing cannot produce anything); it has existed eternally (impossible because of the dimension of "time" and "entropy" - the universe cannot "wind down" forever); it is an illusion (let's not even go there since this is an indefensible position); or, it was created by a creator out of nothing. Take your pick. Which is it?

5,131 posted on 01/15/2003 10:33:58 PM PST by f.Christian (Orcs of the world: Take note and beware.)
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To: f.Christian
I already posted a response to this.

Several of the examples I offered up do not fit into any of these four catagories. Our universe could be a balancing shadow of some more important thing similar to a universe, and whose laws merely reflect an act of dumping to maintain stasis in the xverses--in other words, we're a sewer plant. Our universe could be tied in an endless loop by, amongst other means, time's beginning and end being identical events.

And, at any rate, none of the explanations you have ruled out are, in fact, categorically ruled out.

1) It is a highly defensible position (in fact, an impregnable one) that "It COULD be an illusion", it could be a joint illusion, it could be an illusion created by creatures mutually illusioned into existence by each other. (By the way, what is the difference between Berkeley's suggestion that all the universe is an illusion, and that God whopped up the universe out of nothing? ie, we're God's illusion.)

2) Of course something can come from nothing. Positrons and electrons poop into existence out of nothing all the time. The casimir effect depends on the stochastic reliability of this phenomenon.

3) Of course the universe could wind down forever. No presently known laws related to time, entropy, or anything else rule this out.

5,134 posted on 01/15/2003 10:58:04 PM PST by donh
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To: f.Christian
There are only 4 possible answers to the origins of God: He sprang from NOTHING (impossible since nothing cannot produce anything); He has existed eternally (impossible because of the dimension of "time" and "entropy" - the universe cannot "wind down" forever); He is an illusion (let's not even go there since this is an indefensible position); or, He was created by a creator out of nothing. Take your pick. Which is it?

If you bring logic to the dinner table, you have to eat it. If you tell me that God is outside of space and time, you violate #1.

5,162 posted on 01/16/2003 7:31:08 AM PST by js1138
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