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So spell out two things for me. First give me an example of something that is physical, but not material….

Hello Physicist! As an example: Gravity? (At least in the traditional senses of “gravity” and “material.” I know there’s been some recent speculation about gravitons, which seems to want to find a way to attribute materiality to this force of nature…but I don’t know how that hypothesis is faring at the moment, experimentally speaking.)

Then explain to me what part of Penrose's beliefs regarding consciousness (which in his words are summarized as ‘Appropriate physical action of the brain evokes awareness, but this physical action cannot even be properly simulated computationally.’) are not attributable to the action of material…

Please may I have a rain check on that, P? I haven’t read Penrose yet, though I’ve got two of his books ordered and on the way. Also the Christopher Wills title you suggested. It was out of print, but I was able to find a copy on the aftermarket.

I’d welcome a discussion after I’ve had some time to digest Penrose -- so to speak. I really am not a practicing cannibal…. :^) But I really do have to try to "get up to speed" first. I hope this will be O.K. with you.

If you don't mind, I'd like to take another stab at the questions raised at 4312.

Your challenge began: First give me an example of something that is physical, but not material. I did not answer because the language is one of the philosophy and not physics.

I shall borrow from your Bell's Inequalities dialogue and present the philosophical difference this way:

Doctor Materialist and Doctor Physicalist are sitting in the room of all scientific knowledge. They see a door marked "Multi Universe."

Both agree they don't know what is behind that door.

Doctor Materialist says "Whatever is behind that door is based on all the physical laws that are in the room of all scientific knowledge.”

Doctor Physicalist says "Perhaps it is, but we have no way of knowing, we must first find a way to open the door.”

There is yet another door marked "Consciousness."

Again, they both agree they don't know what is behind that door.

But Doctor Materialist says “I am sure that whatever is behind that door works the same as things do here in the room of all scientific knowledge.”

Doctor Physicalist says, “Perhaps it does, but we have no way of knowing, we must first find a way to open the door. For this one, we’ll need a new of kind of science.”