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To: Alamo-Girl
Did Euclid, Reimann, Schwartzchild discover geometries or did they invent them? Invented. Same for Bolayi, Gauss, and Lobachevesky.

Does “threeness” exist separately from 3 chairs, 3 apples, 3 dogs? Yes, but it is an invented concept. Threeness as a concept is neither confirms nor denies the existence of three apples nor a pawnshop.

Invented.

One does try to make the inventions predict reality.

It can be a bit difficult to distinguish invention from discovery. For example, some sculptors say they are only bringing out or discovering a previously existing form in the raw marble. On the other hand, did Beethoven discover or invent his symphonies? Mathematics seems to have more in common with music than with trekking over the frozen wastes looking for a new island (at least on my good days it does.)

4,383 posted on 01/10/2003 10:12:30 AM PST by Doctor Stochastic ( Nature is very constant and comfortable with herself. -Isaac Newton)
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To: Doctor Stochastic
Invent . . . hypothesis

discover . . . theory // 'faith'

reality // Truth . . . LIFE // creation // science // GOD ! ! !

Good News For The Day

‘I am the bread of life. . .(John 6:35).’

"There was a day when Jesus stood up and announced to the people: I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE. The day before Jesus made that speech, he had amazed everyone by miraculously feeding thousands of people with a few loaves of bread. A lot of people had seen that miracle, so, the next day, they went to a lot of effort to find Jesus, in the hope that they would see something similar happen. They were hoping for more of the same. They were being led by their stomachs."

"In response to them, Jesus said, Do not work for the food that spoils. You have gone to some trouble to seek me out in the hope that you will score another belly full. Your effort is misplaced. You need to work for food that does not spoil. You ought to labor for the food that will . . . link - - - you to the life of God."

"Suppose every young person arriving in this world, could be given a piece of advice. One vital clue, that would set them on a course through life that would save him from wasting his time on vanities; that would keep her from going down dead end roads in futile endeavors. It is just such advice that Jesus is offering here. He is saying : Don't give yourself to that which will end in disappointment. Don't let the whole effort of your life be for nothing. Work for something that ultimately affirms your worth. Work for the bread that endures to eternal life."

. . "I am the bread of life."

4,386 posted on 01/10/2003 10:28:22 AM PST by f.Christian
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To: Doctor Stochastic
For example, some sculptors say they are only bringing out or discovering a previously existing form in the raw marble.

That's the way it is with me, but all of the marble I get contains only shapeless blobs with sharp edges and chisel scratches. The stuff is crap. I wonder where Michelangelo got his marble?

4,387 posted on 01/10/2003 10:30:04 AM PST by Physicist
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To: Doctor Stochastic
Thank you so much for your reply! It is marvelously clear and will be very helpful to lurkers in drawing their own conclusions!

Something you said got my undivided attention:

On the other hand, did Beethoven discover or invent his symphonies? Mathematics seems to have more in common with music than with trekking over the frozen wastes looking for a new island (at least on my good days it does.)

Music is a most excellent example of invention. As you probably know, my “take” on the inception of the universe (or multi-verse) is that harmonics precede fields, which manifest space/time, dimensions, geometry, and from there particles, energy, etc. To me, harmonics are the language of the universe – not mathematics. But it would be impossible to comprehend harmonics much less structure an algorithm at inception without the math.

Despite your engaging counter-argument, and that it fits nicely with my hypothesis that algorithm at inception is proof of intelligent design --- I remain a Platonist.

I consider mathematicians to be the most important explorers throughout history, and the most important to our future. You all seemingly have no limitation of thought, e.g. space/time, domain, etc.

4,397 posted on 01/10/2003 10:59:14 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Doctor Stochastic
It can be a bit difficult to distinguish invention from discovery. ... did Beethoven discover or invent his symphonies?

At the risk of being banned, I would suggest that music evolves in the mind of the composer. Ditto for all creative processes. In the case of music I would say there are at least two selectors, one for harmony (sweetness) and one for dissonance (spice, variety, change, surprise, etc).

4,402 posted on 01/10/2003 11:07:44 AM PST by js1138 (I now know.)
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