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Having been brought up a Southern Baptist which means i have read that damn Book More times than I like to think of before my 18th birthday I think I'll say something about this post.

viaveritasvita wrote "The resurrection could not have been maintained in Jerusalem for a single day, for a single hour, if the emptiness of the tomb had not been established as a fact for all concerned. Paul Althu"

12 strong able bodied men could easily empty that tomb in the night.
It wasn't maintained even for a single day. There are literally hundreds of empty tombs in Jerusalem. Jesus in fact may not have even existed as the man portrayed in the Bible. The accounts of his life are written years after his death and each account of his life is different(and you can read each one in the Bible Matthew Mark Luke and John). Each book gives a different account of the Life and death of Jesus. If the Bible is divinely inspired why would God give each author of each Gospel a widely differing account of jesus' life. I mean no two are the same in fact for all the accounts to be true Jesus would in fact be four different people especially as the accounts of his birth differ. If you don't believe me read that Book.

viaveritasvita wrote "In 56 A.D. Paul wrote that over 500 people had seen the risen Jesus and that most of them were still alive (1 Corinthians 15:6). It passes the bounds of credibility that the early Christians could have manufactured such a tale and then preached it among those who might easily have refuted it simply by producing the body of Jesus. John Warwick Montgomery"

What are the names of these 500 people? Where are there accounts of this risen Jesus. Manufacturing tales hmmm Jim Jones preached quite a few manufactured tales, Adolf Hitler manufactured quite a few tales himself in fact most messianic leaders produce weird wacky tales. And if twelve able bodied men want to hide a body I doubt anyone could find it or produce it especially fishermen ...can we say bait.

viaveritasvita wrote "cowering one day and a few days later transformed into a company that no persecution could silence--and then attempting to attribute this dramatic change to nothing more convincing than a miserable fabrication they were trying to foist upon the world. This simply wouldn't make sense"

They cowered quite a bit longer than one day in-fact they got fed to lions for quite a long time after-wards. The fact that a bunch of con artists has fooled the world is no surprise to me anyone remember that guy named Karl Marx?

viaveritasvita wrote "slam has no Cross and no resurrection, articles of the faith that are of the essence of Christianity and of ultimate importance to the plan of the God of the Bible. Mohammed made no atonement for our sins when he died. And when he died, he remained so. R.C. Sproul"

How is this any proof of anything?
I'm also skipping a few more because they are sort of nonsequitors.

viaveritasvita wrote "n that greatest point we are not merely asked to have faith. In its favor as living truth there exists such overwhelming evidence, positive and negative, factual and circumstantial, that no intelligent jury in the world cold faith to bring in a verdict that the resurrection story is true. Lord Darling, former Chief Justice of England "

This makes little sense but I think he is saying that no jury would say jesus didn't die on the cross because of the evidence. What evidence we are always told about all this evidence of jesus' life I haven't seen it. Is this evidence the bible? Where is the Roman writ authorizing jesus' death? Were is his tax records? Were are the contemporary Roman accounts of his life? If he was so important trust me the Romans would have wrote volumes on him ... history is silent.

viaveritasvita wrote "The disciples had nothing to gain by lying and starting a new religion. They faced hardship, ridicule, hostility, and martyr's deaths. In light of this, they could have never sustained such unwavering motivation if they knew what they were preaching was a lie"

The nazis had nothing to gain by lying and starting a new reich. They faced hardship (prison), ridicule (trust me adolf was ridiculed before he wrote Mein Kampf) , hostility (ever see news reels of nazis fighting other street gangs), and a martyr's death. In light of this they could have never sustained such unwavering motivation if they knew what they were preaching was a lie.

I'm skipping some more of this drivel

viaveritasvita wrote "...we know more about the details of the hours immediately before and the actual death of Jesus, in and near Jerusalem, than we know about the death of any other one man in the ancient world. Wilbur Smith"

Really the only account I know of is the Bible. In fact there are lengthy accounts of the hours before the death of several ancient men look to Froissarts chronicles, The accounts of Socrates death (yes accounts more than one), and some of the Lives of Plutarch. Case in fact this assertion just isn't true

viaveritasvita wrote "the histories of other times, and [have examined and weighed] the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than the great sign which God hath given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead. Thomas Arnold, Oxford University"

What??? I mean what evidence is there? I mean the Bible gives an account but what physical evidence do we have and please don't say the fraud of Turin. I can name plenty of historic facts that can be proved more fully I'll point to the eruption of MT Vesuvius and burial of Pompey. There are many contemporary accounts of this eruption, there is geologic evidence for the eruption and its outcome, and there is the entire city that was buried by the eruption. I can't think of an event as well documented.

viaveritasvita wrote "The Gospel account of the darkness which fell upon the land during Christ's crucifixion was well known and required a naturalistic explanation from non-Christians. [Non-Christian writing from antiquity]"

Can you please point me to the nonChristian account of this Darkness. I mean you can say there are accounts of it but where is this evidence? Show this evidence

Oh and accounts written hundreds of years after jesus' death don't count I mean people still write science fiction.

Sorry for jumping in.

Jesus in fact may not have even existed as the man portrayed in the Bible. The accounts of his life are written years after his death and each account of his life is different(and you can read each one in the Bible Matthew Mark Luke and John). Each book gives a different account of the Life and death of Jesus. If the Bible is divinely inspired why would God give each author of each Gospel a widely differing account of jesus' life. I mean no two are the same in fact for all the accounts to be true Jesus would in fact be four different people especially as the accounts of his birth differ. If you don't believe me read that Book.

Let's take my father as an example--a retired Navy captain, now a beloved high school teacher and occassionally gives Christian seminars.

Suppose a group of people decided to write memoirs of him--his wife, me, one of his high school students, one of the officers from his military days, and one attendee of his seminars. Would you not say that our memiors would be very unique?

Moreover, people do not "remember" things about another person in chronological order, and nor do they remember the same things. The synoptic gospels--Matthew, Mark, and Luke--are actually very remarkably similar, although they are still unique in their own ways. Matthew decided to emphasize the religious qualities of Jesus. Mark's gospel is pretty action-filled. In the first part of Luke, it mentions many, many gospels that have been written about Jesus. How sad that history lost such valuable documents! Only the Gospel of Thomas has been found (which is simply a collection of Jesus's sayings), and fragments of a few others.

You are wrong in your information. There are very early originals from the first century by Paul, who was in commune with Peter and the original Apostles, and there is Joseph Flavius. Churches just don't raise around a Person so quickly.

This makes little sense but I think he is saying that no jury would say jesus didn't die on the cross because of the evidence. What evidence we are always told about all this evidence of jesus' life I haven't seen it. Is this evidence the bible? Where is the Roman writ authorizing jesus' death? Were is his tax records? Were are the contemporary Roman accounts of his life? If he was so important trust me the Romans would have wrote volumes on him ... history is silent.

There are many political references in the New Testament, all of which collaborate with historical accounts of what we know about Pilate, Caesar, Herod, etc. Joseph Flavius. The Gospel of Thomas, Secret Mark, Peter. If Jesus didn't exist, there certainly was a huge cult formed over a nonexistant man and his resurrection very soon after his death.

I'm going to skip the rest of your arguments about Nazis, Karl Marx, and so on--you must realize, after all, taken to their logical conclusion--everything we know could possibly be a lie. No amount of evidence in the world will convince you, nor anyone else, after all--which is why I rarely engage in those kinds of debates. A decision must be made to believe--called "faith".

For what it's worth, I am a firm believer in evolution and in the separation of the supernatural from science. To me, the anger that Christians hold over evolution is pure silliness, and only pushes otherwise open-minded people away from Christianity. what's even more silly is that for most Christians almost everything they know about evolution, they know from 10th grade biology and/or read in other Christian publications, and they can't name a peer reviewed journal.

This wasn't an attempt to convert you or anything, but to make a few arguments. Best wishes to you. NX

12 strong able bodied men could easily empty that tomb in the night.

It would require overpowering the Roman guards followed by the hard part. Keeping the secret, not letting anyone find the body or explain what happened to it. All the while being promised bribes for switching sides and being threatened with sever punishment if they didn't. And that doesn't even include the problem of human nature -- temptation to show what a big deal one is to acquaintences, getting ticked at the leaders etc.

There are literally hundreds of empty tombs in Jerusalem.

Not at the time there wasn't.

Jesus in fact may not have even existed as the man portrayed in the Bible.

The Bible is by far the most authenticated book of antiquity. Do you believe that Ceasar's Commentary on the Gallic Wars is accurate?

The accounts of his life are written years after his death

Well, 20 years after His death. The Gospel of Matthew has been reliably dated to have been written between 50 and 65 A.D. The last gospel, John, has been reliably dated to between 90 and 110 A.D. They are remarkably contemporaneous.

and each account of his life is different(and you can read each one in the Bible Matthew Mark Luke and John). Each book gives a different account of the Life and death of Jesus. If the Bible is divinely inspired why would God give each author of each Gospel a widely differing account of jesus' life.

This is actually one of the reasons why I came to believe it. There is a saying in journalism/law/police investigation that the only thing you can be sure of when two witnesses tell the exact same story is that both are lying. It means they would have collaborated. The gospel writers did not collaborate. They wrote independent accounts of events which occurred. They differ on minor details as would be expected of honest witnesses. The important stuff (the Resurrection, the Virgin Birth, the Miracles, the teachings) don't contradict.

I mean no two are the same in fact for all the accounts to be true Jesus would in fact be four different people especially as the accounts of his birth differ. If you don't believe me read that Book.

That may be your problem. You were raised not to question the scholarship. I read the Bible with the expectation that it wasn't true.

God did not write the Bible with his finger. He used men guided by the Holy Spirit. And He allowed the mistakes (how did Judas die? One version is wrong) because God is not a bully nor is he a martinet.

What are the names of these 500 people?

You actually have a surprising number of names (John, Peter, Thomas, Paul) although not 500. And it's bedtime. Forgive the spelling mistakes.

Sentis wrote (in post 4292) "Having been brought up a Southern Baptist which means i have read that...Book More times than I like to think of before my 18th birthday...."

It's funny, I was brought up Catholic and, while many Catholics are true Christians and generally the Catholic church is to be commended for its good works, I broke with them because I believe their doctrine is seriously flawed; yet another case of hijacking the original into a counterfeit (you can read one small and recent proof of this, which I think shows the leftie liberalism that has invaded the Catholic Church and is only the tip of the iceberg, in the headlines of 2002).

Since then, I studied many of the world's religions and almost all the Christian denominations. I think the So. Baptists have their doctrine down as close as it gets to Biblically sound. I do have problems with some of the So. Baptists' application with that doctrine.

I generally prefer the non-denominational, expository-type teaching. I'm not a member of any church because there is no Biblical mandate to join a particular church -- I'm a member of the worldwide Church of Jesus Christ by virtue of my belief and have been blessed with several good Christian friends with whom I fellowship on a regular basis. I do attend church most every Sunday and read the Bible regularly.

I wondered if, since you said you read the Bible apparently several times before your 18th birthday, if you can really say that you actually read it. I only wonder because I, too, said I read it, but what that actually meant was that I read bits and pieces, I listened to the priests' sermons, I observed people who professed to be Christians, etc., forming my own doctrine and opinion of Christianity based on these bits and pieces. I never read it cover to cover for myself as an adult.

When I finally decided it was important to read this Book that has made such an impact on world history from day one, I bought the Life Application Study Bible and read every single word of the commentary. I then read the Bible, Genesis to Revelation, AND the commentary. To say it was an eye-opener is an understatement. I was stunned at the amount of mis-information and strange interpretations and counterfeit Christianity to which I'd been subjected for years!! I'm just asking that you re-look at your statement that you've read the Bible.

I urge you to look to Jesus Christ only for the Truth; His followers will only disappoint you as we are human. Don't take anyone's word for it; read it for yourself. Don't take bits and pieces of it; read it cover to cover.

"The accounts of his life are written years after his death and each account of his life is different(and you can read each one in the Bible Matthew Mark Luke and John). Each book gives a different account of the Life and death of Jesus. If the Bible is divinely inspired why would God give each author of each Gospel a widely differing account of jesus' life. I mean no two are the same in fact for all the accounts to be true Jesus would in fact be four different people especially as the accounts of his birth differ. If you don't believe me read that Book."

Yes, they are different, but this difference works in its favor as anyone in investigation will tell you: If several people give the exact same account, you can be nearly sure they all got together and decided on their story. Also, we may have several different versions of a car accident, but we can know that an accident happened. We may have differing accounts -- which is a good thing; I might notice the car's color and think that the most important thing, but you might notice it's make, and think that an important clue; taken together, they carry more weight and help investigate the details of the accident -- but the Gospels all point to the same thing, i.e. that a man named Jesus was born, lived, and died and that He claimed to be God in the flesh, Immanuel, God with us, the Messiah of the Old Testament.