[exmarine]

School is for teaching students how to think, give them knowledge and to make them understand the world in a secular manner.

First, I want to tell you that I enjoy the exchanges with you. I love civil discourse!

Teaching students how to think - EXACTLY. They are either taught how to think in an atheistic manner, or in a theistic manner. Is there another way to think? Today's schools teach them how to think in an atheistic manner. The U.S. Govt.'s official religion (de facto not de jour) is atheism and that is what is taught in govt. schools.

Just as I have explained to Betty, god CANNOT be used as a causation in science. God can Neither be proven NOR disproven, therefore, using god as a causation is NOT science. It is religion or philosophy.

If God did indeed create the universe and this world and you, would not all concepts of what you call science today be His handiwork? In that case, could you really divorce science from God? No. The reason you want to keep science and religion separate is because you begin with the presupposition that God did not create anything.

Science is not atheistic, it just never asks the question. If you ask a scientist if there is a god, he will most likely tell you yes. If you ask him to use god in a theory, he'll tell you that you are off your nut, because god cannot be used in a SCIENTIFIC theory.

Atheistic/naturalistic Science answered the question before asking it. It has said, "there is no God" and based all subsequent discoveries and interpretations on that presumption. As I already stated, many of the pillars of modern-day science (Newton, Kepler, etc.) were able to make their discoveries only becuase God was in the equation.

Science is not atheistic, it is secular, because it cannot prove, NOR disprove the existence of god, therefore it never asks the question. if it were athiestic, it would say, "there is NO god" Science does not do that, because it cannot have an opinion on such a question. Because again, the question can neither be proven nor disproven. Therefore it is not for science to say.

Do you really believe that naturalism is neutral on the idea of a creator? Let's dig deep and really examine that claim of yours. If we do, I believe you will find that naturalists are almost without exception "anti-theists," and my experience on FR threads and in many other forums is proof of that.

Again, god cannot be proven nor disproven, therefore it is not a part of science, science is based on facts and suppostion with those facts. God is not a fact, nor is the nonexistence of god a fact, therefore it is not a part of science.

You are right - God cannot be proven. However, naturalism assumes from the get-go that God does not exist, and all of its theories, including darwinism, assume He doesn't. Face it, science today is not neutral at all - it is anti-theistic. By the way, using your reasoning, I can say that evolution cannot be proven, so it is not a part of science.

Now, if a science teacher stood in front of a class and said that there is no god, I want his ass fired pronto, because that is his opinion, NOT science. If he said that there is a god, I want his ass fired pronto, because again, that his opinion, not science. Science cannot answer the question, therefore, science has NO opinion.

What if the science teacher does not explicitly state "there is no God," but every one of his theories has that underlying implicit assumption? Should he not be fired in that case as well?

[BMCDA]

What if the science teacher does not explicitly state "there is no God," but every one of his theories has that underlying implicit assumption? Should he not be fired in that case as well?

Ah, so you don't only have a problem with the Theory of Evolution but with biology and every other branch of science (physics, chemistry, geology, etc.) in general.
Now I'm sorry to disappoint you but no scientific theory needs a deity to explain observed facts and if it did it wouldn't even be one.

As I already stated, many of the pillars of modern-day science (Newton, Kepler, etc.) were able to make their discoveries only becuase God was in the equation.

And yet Laplace made his discoveries although God wasn't in the equation. It is even reported that he said to Napoleon that he didn't need that hypothesis (i.e. God) to explain the orbits of the planets (please note that he didn't say that a god does not exist). Until then many (including Newton) believed that devine intervention was required to keep the planets on course. Laplace demonstrated that this hypothesis was superfluous.

Of course Laplace wasn't the only party pooper who showed that you don't have to invoke the supernatural in order to explain observed phenomena.
Friedrich Woehler for instance was an other one of these party poopers who made the God of the Gaps shrink even more.

Regards

[Aric2000]

If the theories he is teaching are based on true science and fact, then no, he should NOT be fired, but if he comes right out and says it, then yes.

If you wish your children to learn about god etc, then you teach them at home. Teaching your religious beliefs is the parents job, not the schools. It is the schools job, in a perfect world that is, which this is not, to NOT interfere in a childs belief system, but I will be the first to admit that schools DO interfere, and they should NOT.

I believe bible clubs, religious organizations should be allowed to practice at schools on a voluntary basis, just as I believe the boy scouts should be allowed etc. I do not believe that they should be allowed to prostletize etc, but they should be allowed to get students of the same faith together so that they may worship or study or whatever they choose to do.

Again, my opinion is this, science belongs in a science class, whether you believe it is anti-theistic or not, I do NOT believe that, because MOST scientists have some sort of belief in the divine. They just don't let it interfere with their work, just as they do not allow it to interfere in their beliefs.

Schools should be secular, I pay for it, it would be offensive to my beliefs if my children were taught that creationism were taught as science, I have my own belief systems, and therefore I will teach my children those beliefs myself. I do NOT want the schools even admitting that there is a god, but I also do NOT want them saying there is NO god either.

It is NONE of the schools business, and that whole pandoras box needs to stay closed. Because, once we admit one, you know that we will have to admit ALL of them. This includes, paganism, which I am, but again, that is NONE of the schools business, devil worship, which I abhor, Islam, which of course is the most troublemaking religion there is at this juncture, Buddhism, which is peaceful, but I don't want my kids meditating in class, Hinduism, I don't want my kids to learn to worship some elephant god, etc, etc ad nauseum. Christianity is one of the most peaceful religions, but I still do not want it taught in school, because there are so MANY different sects, which ones do you let in, if you let in one, you have to let them all in, mormonism?, presbetyrian, how about we invite a Roman Catholic Priest in, not near my son, thank you, sorry, that was a bad joke.

Anyway, I think you understand where I am coming from, this is another reason I homeschool, I don't want my kids involved in such nonsense and debates.

Some of the stuff they are teaching is so far beyond the pale that there is no way I want my kids near it.