[tpaine]

"The concept that rights only exist if one can defend them has a long philosophical history."

That's a far cry from saying inalienable rights exist because we can defend them.

No one here made that claim. - See my rebuttal to your mistake.

If man is "endowed" with these rights by virtue of a Creator - which is what our forefathers held, wrote out, and defended - then these rights exist apart from our ability to even recognize or defend them.

Exactly my original point, except that a 'creator' is not needed to make that point valid. -- Mans self evident reason & free will are the basis of our rights.

[Fester Chugabrew]

"See my rebuttal to your mistake.

All you did was pretend there is a distinction between "depends on" and "derives from." If you care to tell me how these two differ I might consider whether what you've presented is really a "rebuttal."