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As a employer with a few H1B's and U.S. Citizens I could not have said it better than you did. I wish I had more time today to expand on your thoughts, but let me throw out a few items for discussion.

Regarding IT jobs. For some reason I keep seeing a lot of IT, and software jobs advertized in the Wash. Post, Boeing, and many other D. contractors having job fairs no less, and to top it off they are only open to U.S. CITIZENS. When I mention this to some laid off friends I get "I don't want to move." Or when they find out it requires a background investigation, "That's too intrusive". Boy if it requires a polygraph there is dead silence. Wonder why?

I think the anti H1B movement is really a Trojan Horse that's already in the Fort, and will really accelerate the death of IT and software in this country. Let me make a few points.

First, many H1B's have already lost jobs and returned. I know this because I have interviewed many and followed their return. What did they do on return? They joined a incountry firm or setup their own and used their U.S. contacts to now sell their services at 1/5-1/10 their cost. What did that do? Send more projects overseas and further eliminate U.S. jobs.

Second, now the big data base users are going East. It seems that it costs $10.00 per change to the Dbase in the U.S. but $4.00 in India.

Third, The real threat is China, I understand that the Chinese have made it clear to all the Multinational Cos that they must also locate cutting edge R/D facilities in country if they wish to sell products. Cos like Motorola have been found to have "token facilities". They are running like crazy to get it up to what the Chinese want. If the Chinese are sucessful in taking our R/D you can put a fork in us, we're done.

The Chinese have also put the arm on the Indians. It seems that one of the big problems with Indian firms is political stability. The Chinese have offered "political stability" if they locate in China.

Now I have a simple quick solution for the H1B program. Any H1B should be given a "conditional green card" This would put them truly "in the market" If they were really good and underpaid they could go to another employeer for what they were worth. The first employeer would have to pay them what they were worth or shoulder the expense of bringing the H1B here for another employeer. The condition would be that every year the H1B would have to submit his 1040 to prove his salary rate is at least what he started at.

As you point out we need the best in this country. I think if properly constructed the H1B can be a "test" to see if they are. I think the anti-H1B movement is a distraction from deeper problems and threats to our entire country and way of life in the future.

"The real threat is China"

As the Clinton years taught us China wants our defense secrets -- Clinton just gave it to them. Technology theft at any price -- we just rolled over -- like for the Islamists. So china sends their young best students to US universities paid by the US taxpayers. Then they get world class experience for 5+ years. Then they go back to China and are forced to produce for the state and they maybe coding missiles aimed at us.

Helper, You raise some good points about the movement of jobs overseas. There are really 2 forces at work here. The main one of this thread is bringing foreigners over here to work in jobs in the US. This is the H-1B program. The program as conceived overall was not entirely bad. However, the backers of the ITAA used this program to flood a particular industrial sector - IT. See this: Testimony to the U.S. House Judiciary Committee Subcommittee on Immigration for details.

Regarding moving jobs overseas. This has been done for software projects at least since the mid 80's. It can be done, and done well. (And yes, you can move databases, and low-skilled data entry operator jobs overseas, just like you can move call centers overseas.) But more often it fails. They fail because developing the software overseas has all of the same difficulties as doing it here - plus the inherent difficulties of coordinating everything via phone, fax, and time zones on the other side of the planet. So - yes, it can be done. Sometimes it works. For certain types of projects is very effective. For most - the money could have just been flushed down the toilet.

The threat to move project work overseas is often just that - a threat - and a hollow one at that. Makes a great marketing message, good to threaten employees with - but in reality moving projects overseas fails more than it succeeds. Now there may be posters that will immediately jump on and describe how they lead a multi-national development team in the Phillipines, Taiwan, and Germany and did great. Like I said, it can work. But I have been in this industry for many years, and usually when software projects are sent overseas, they fail - or they do work but at a greater cost than if they were done here (because of the rework due to improperly understood business requirements, the failure to understand the scaling requirements, and the additional overhead of travel and international phone/fax costs for the additional project coordination and administration.)

Regarding IT jobs. For some reason I keep seeing a lot of IT, and software jobs advertized in the Wash. Post, Boeing, and many other D. contractors having job fairs no less, and to top it off they are only open to U.S. CITIZENS. When I mention this to some laid off friends I get "I don't want to move." Or when they find out it requires a background investigation, "That's too intrusive". Boy if it requires a polygraph there is dead silence. Wonder why?

THat is exactly right: most of these people do not want jobs that allegedly go to foreigners: they want jobs without making sacrifices, they want jobs from which they can retire without a need for retraining --- ever: "What, me? You want me to take courses at night?"

And then they complain that allegedly these jobs were taken by others. It's also funny to hear it when we have the lowest in modern history unemployment.

Regarding IT jobs. For some reason I keep seeing a lot of IT, and software jobs advertized in the Wash. Post, Boeing, and many other D. contractors having job fairs no less, and to top it off they are only open to U.S. CITIZENS.

Most of the jobs that require U.S. citizenship also require an EXISTING or PRE EXISTING Top Secret Security clearance. So a lot of the jobs you see can only be filled by those who allergy had a security clearance. I know it looks like there are a lot of jobs available but when you actually send your resume to these places you very seldom even get a return call. So it is misleading.

Third, The real threat is China, I understand that the Chinese have made it clear to all the Multinational Cos that they must also locate cutting edge R/D facilities in country if they wish to sell products.

How very nice of the Chinese government to enact policies that help their citizens get jobs and employment. Maybe they know a thing or two about the negative aspects of having a huge unemployed population.