The Truth about H1B Visas

FlyingA Productions | 11/17/02 | FlyingA

[FlyingA]

As a consultant, I've been hit by the slowing of the economy and the destruction of the tech sector, I've recently caught myself dwelling over the prosperous times of the late 90's when I was making 6 figures. Being one to want to know the wheres, whats... and particularly the why's... I started researching the issues behind the downfall of the tech sector within the U.S.

While this is hardly a comprehensive explanation of what’s wrong with the economy and every aspect of the tech sector, it is in my opinion the quickest and most obvious thing that’s wrong with it today.

What I found out was that through out the mid & late 90's... Large software corporations were experiencing a very public and published labor shortage of skilled tech workers in America. Companies like Microsoft and Oracle among other large corporations began to lobby Washington to increase the cap on H1-B visas from 65,000 to 130,000 per fiscal year looking to get the bill "American Competitiveness in the 21st Century Act" (S.B. 2045) passed.

This bill received a lot of resistance from 1996, when it was first proposed, through 2000 and looked like it was dead several times. Due to amendments on both sides of the isle it remained alive and in Oct 2000, then President Clinton signed the bill S.B. 2045 into law. Which is effective from 2000-2003 and allows the number of 6 year H1-B visa to ultimately be increased to 195,000 per fiscal year. Over the last 2 years, the number of individuals in America under H1-B visa has risen to 650,000 people.

36% of the unemployed 1.8 million Americans could be working if it wasn't for this law. It seems to me that we as high tech workers need to right our Congressmen & Senators and put a stop to this law.....

FlyingA

[TopQuark]

TQ: It is a free-market capitalism: citizenship is a barrier to an unbridled, completely free market; the government removes that barrier for certain professions.

Lelio: Couple things wrong with this:
1) H1Bs are required to stay with their current employer for so many years This is illogical: you are pointing to another barrier. To reiterate: permission to enter the country is a removal of a previously erected barrier. As such it is an improvement of the flow, not an impedence thereof.

and can't easily leave this endentured servitude state. Now you are pointing out the terms of a contract with the employer who sponsored you.

And, I have to add, I cannot read without disgust that you confuse the privilege of being here with the state of servitude.

2) H1Bs are targeted mainly towards one segment: the IT industry. Singleling out one profession for government intervention isn't capitalistic. Once again: it is citizenship that is not capitalistic.

I've said that much in the previous post. Reflect before you write, don't just repeat someone's words.

3) Capitalism doesn't exist in a vacuum, and I believe voiding any sort of citizenship requirements for work in the country degrades the US as a whole. It makes the country more of a port of call for any sort of migrant worker coming through. Why try and flourish in a country where cheap labor is brought in from anywhere w/o restrictions? I answered that in a prebious post.

[FITZ]

No reduction of a minimum wage law will ever cause someone to work for 50 cents an hour here.

They won't because we have a very expensive welfare system to provide for the unskilled here who won't work for $0.50 or $0.25 an hour (including many unskilled Chinese and Mexicans coming here because they apparently won't work for that either), then our cost of living is that much higher because we have even higher taxes to pay for that huge and ever growing welfare system. Then we become even less competitive.

[lelio]

I cannot read without disgust that you confuse the privilege of being here with the state of servitude.
I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here, can you elaborate?
Once again: it is citizenship that is not capitalistic.
We choose to disagree on that subject then. I do not think citizenship is not an enemy of capitalism.

[FITZ]

I think we have to look back to the times of the American Revolution and realize that our founding fathers fought to have this become a free country that wasn't ruled by an aristocrat class. If people want to be a middle class society, they have to fight for it, it's not something you wait around believing the aristocratic elites are just going to do for you.

[helper]

As a employer with a few H1B's and U.S. Citizens I could not have said it better than you did. I wish I had more time today to expand on your thoughts, but let me throw out a few items for discussion.

Regarding IT jobs. For some reason I keep seeing a lot of IT, and software jobs advertized in the Wash. Post, Boeing, and many other D. contractors having job fairs no less, and to top it off they are only open to U.S. CITIZENS. When I mention this to some laid off friends I get "I don't want to move." Or when they find out it requires a background investigation, "That's too intrusive". Boy if it requires a polygraph there is dead silence. Wonder why?

I think the anti H1B movement is really a Trojan Horse that's already in the Fort, and will really accelerate the death of IT and software in this country. Let me make a few points.

First, many H1B's have already lost jobs and returned. I know this because I have interviewed many and followed their return. What did they do on return? They joined a incountry firm or setup their own and used their U.S. contacts to now sell their services at 1/5-1/10 their cost. What did that do? Send more projects overseas and further eliminate U.S. jobs.

Second, now the big data base users are going East. It seems that it costs $10.00 per change to the Dbase in the U.S. but $4.00 in India.

Third, The real threat is China, I understand that the Chinese have made it clear to all the Multinational Cos that they must also locate cutting edge R/D facilities in country if they wish to sell products. Cos like Motorola have been found to have "token facilities". They are running like crazy to get it up to what the Chinese want. If the Chinese are sucessful in taking our R/D you can put a fork in us, we're done.

The Chinese have also put the arm on the Indians. It seems that one of the big problems with Indian firms is political stability. The Chinese have offered "political stability" if they locate in China.

Now I have a simple quick solution for the H1B program. Any H1B should be given a "conditional green card" This would put them truly "in the market" If they were really good and underpaid they could go to another employeer for what they were worth. The first employeer would have to pay them what they were worth or shoulder the expense of bringing the H1B here for another employeer. The condition would be that every year the H1B would have to submit his 1040 to prove his salary rate is at least what he started at.

As you point out we need the best in this country. I think if properly constructed the H1B can be a "test" to see if they are. I think the anti-H1B movement is a distraction from deeper problems and threats to our entire country and way of life in the future.

[BeAllYouCanBe]

"The real threat is China"

As the Clinton years taught us China wants our defense secrets -- Clinton just gave it to them. Technology theft at any price -- we just rolled over -- like for the Islamists. So china sends their young best students to US universities paid by the US taxpayers. Then they get world class experience for 5+ years. Then they go back to China and are forced to produce for the state and they maybe coding missiles aimed at us.

[blueriver]

The H1B program is a deregulation of the labor market that serves to advance Capitalism.

This is not a deregulation of the labor market it is a government intervention into the labor market. If the government did not get involved in this issue in the first place we would not even be having this discussion. In case you do not recall, it was the government who inacted legislation to change the supply and demand equation of the worker / employer relationship in this country. No company is being restricted from hiring whoever it wants, if they want to hire foreigners they have always been free to do so. All they have to do is move to another country. People like you want the government to make life easier for you at the expense of others. If a company thinks that the American labor pool is not good enough to carry out their business needs they should move to a country that better suits their needs, not insist that the government supply them with a foreign labor pool in America. You are fooling yourself if you do not think that this is government intervention into the labor market.

[dark_lord]

Helper, You raise some good points about the movement of jobs overseas. There are really 2 forces at work here. The main one of this thread is bringing foreigners over here to work in jobs in the US. This is the H-1B program. The program as conceived overall was not entirely bad. However, the backers of the ITAA used this program to flood a particular industrial sector - IT. See this: Testimony to the U.S. House Judiciary Committee Subcommittee on Immigration for details.

Regarding moving jobs overseas. This has been done for software projects at least since the mid 80's. It can be done, and done well. (And yes, you can move databases, and low-skilled data entry operator jobs overseas, just like you can move call centers overseas.) But more often it fails. They fail because developing the software overseas has all of the same difficulties as doing it here - plus the inherent difficulties of coordinating everything via phone, fax, and time zones on the other side of the planet. So - yes, it can be done. Sometimes it works. For certain types of projects is very effective. For most - the money could have just been flushed down the toilet.

The threat to move project work overseas is often just that - a threat - and a hollow one at that. Makes a great marketing message, good to threaten employees with - but in reality moving projects overseas fails more than it succeeds. Now there may be posters that will immediately jump on and describe how they lead a multi-national development team in the Phillipines, Taiwan, and Germany and did great. Like I said, it can work. But I have been in this industry for many years, and usually when software projects are sent overseas, they fail - or they do work but at a greater cost than if they were done here (because of the rework due to improperly understood business requirements, the failure to understand the scaling requirements, and the additional overhead of travel and international phone/fax costs for the additional project coordination and administration.)

[TopQuark]

I do not think citizenship is not an enemy of capitalism. I did not say so: citizenship is an impedement to free flow of labor, that is free market for labor.

[Dave S]

Everyone I know. My son and my daughter and all their friends.

Apparently you have never lived off of a military base. You are highly unusual.

[TopQuark]

If people want to be a middle class society, they have to fight for it, it's not something you wait around believing the aristocratic elites are just going to do for you.

Very well put. BTTT!

[TopQuark]

Regarding IT jobs. For some reason I keep seeing a lot of IT, and software jobs advertized in the Wash. Post, Boeing, and many other D. contractors having job fairs no less, and to top it off they are only open to U.S. CITIZENS. When I mention this to some laid off friends I get "I don't want to move." Or when they find out it requires a background investigation, "That's too intrusive". Boy if it requires a polygraph there is dead silence. Wonder why?

THat is exactly right: most of these people do not want jobs that allegedly go to foreigners: they want jobs without making sacrifices, they want jobs from which they can retire without a need for retraining --- ever: "What, me? You want me to take courses at night?"

And then they complain that allegedly these jobs were taken by others. It's also funny to hear it when we have the lowest in modern history unemployment.

[blueriver]

Regarding IT jobs. For some reason I keep seeing a lot of IT, and software jobs advertized in the Wash. Post, Boeing, and many other D. contractors having job fairs no less, and to top it off they are only open to U.S. CITIZENS.

Most of the jobs that require U.S. citizenship also require an EXISTING or PRE EXISTING Top Secret Security clearance. So a lot of the jobs you see can only be filled by those who allergy had a security clearance. I know it looks like there are a lot of jobs available but when you actually send your resume to these places you very seldom even get a return call. So it is misleading.

[blueriver]

Third, The real threat is China, I understand that the Chinese have made it clear to all the Multinational Cos that they must also locate cutting edge R/D facilities in country if they wish to sell products.

How very nice of the Chinese government to enact policies that help their citizens get jobs and employment. Maybe they know a thing or two about the negative aspects of having a huge unemployed population.

[Irene Adler]

" Boy if it requires a polygraph there is dead silence."

I don't believe that private employers can require a polygraph exam as a condition of employment in the U.S. There is a "Federal Polygraph Protection Act" in place, I believe. It does not apply to law enforcement or national security positions, but does apply to the vast majority of jobs, I am pretty sure.

[TopQuark]

If the world labor markets were truely free, you would see an equal number of americans working in Inida and asia. I dont see that. And where have you gotten this pearl of wisdom, my friend?

Could you explain why that would be the case?

[TopQuark]

This is not a deregulation of the labor market it is a government intervention into the labor market.

No, this is not quite correct: citizenship requirement is an intervention into the labor market, and what we are discussing is a relaxation of that requriment. As such, it is a step in the direction of deregulation.

[blueriver]

citizenship requirement is an intervention into the labor market...

Now we get to the heart of the issue. Why not just rename this country to the United States of the World and be done with it. From your statement it is clear that this government, our laws and the fact that we are a nation is in your precious way of conducting business as you see fit.

[BeAllYouCanBe]

"Apparently you have never lived off of a military base."

I live in the Silicon Valley and haven't lived on a military base since 1969. My son is in the National Guard and he has many friends in the Guard and so does my daughter who is done with her military committment. I guess they are patriotic kids and so are their friends. There are many good American kids who join the Guard for many reasons. I guess you just hang with an unpatriotic crowd.

I guess my point isn't my situation but the H1-Bs who have no responsibilities but have all the benefits of living here in this great country. I work with all H1-Bs which may also be unusual??? We take every precaution to make sure that Ramadan is not a burden on any of the Muslims too -- Boy i sure fee great about that. Imagine if a Christian wanted to take Good Friday off!

It is an unreasonable situation I personally blame on all the oper-door immigration nightmare brought on by the Clinton Administration. Muliculturalism is just great! Bush doesn't seem inclined to curb the flow of immigrants either.

I'm pro immigration, don't misunderstand me, I'm just anti most of the H1-Bs I personally know and work with, who are milking the system.

How many H1-Bs do you know?

[TopQuark]

Now we get to the heart of the issue. Why not just rename this country to the United States of the World and be done with it. From your statement it is clear that this government, our laws and the fact that we are a nation is in your precious way of conducting business as you see fit.

It would be nice if you did not put words in my mouth. I clarified the role of citizenship as it is. Wherefrom did you conclude that I suggest to abandon it?