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Is Satan Bound Today?
BibleBB ^ | Mike Vlach

Posted on 11/14/2002 11:56:40 AM PST by xzins

An Analysis of the Amillennial Interpretation of Revelation 20:1-3.

1 And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
3 and threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he should not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time (Revelation 20:1-3).

One distinctive of amillennial theology is the belief that Satan is bound during this present age. This belief stems from an interpretation that sees the binding of Satan described in Revelation 20:1-3 as being fulfilled today. The purpose of this work is examine the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3 and address the question, "Is Satan bound today?" In doing this, our evaluation will include the following: 1) a brief definition of amillennialism; 2) a look at the amillennial approach to interpreting Revelation; 3) an explanation and analysis of the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3; and 4) some concluding thoughts.

DEFINITION OF AMILLENNIALISM

Amillennialism is the view that there will be no future reign of Christ on the earth for a thousand years.1 Instead, the thousand year reign of Christ mentioned six times in Revelation 20 is being fulfilled during the present age. According to amillennialists, the "thousand years" is not a literal thousand years but is figurative for "a very long period of indeterminate length." 2 Thus the millennium of Revelation 20:1-6 describes the conditions of the present age between the two comings of Christ. During this period Satan is bound (Rev. 20:1-3) and Christ's Kingdom is being fulfilled (Rev. 20:4-6).3

THE AMILLENNIAL APPROACH TO INTERPRETING REVELATION

Before looking specifically at how amillennialists interpret Revelation 20:1-3, it is important to understand how they approach the Book of Revelation. Amillennialists base their interpretation of the Book of Revelation on a system of interpretation known as progressive parallelism. This interpretive system does not view the events of Revelation from a chronological or sequential perspective but, instead, sees the book as describing the church age from several parallel perspectives that run concurrently. 4 Anthony Hoekema, an amillennialist, describes progressive parallelism in the following manner:

According to this view, the book of Revelation consists of seven sections which run parallel to each other, each of which depicts the church and the world from the time of Christ's first coming to the time of his second.5

Following the work of William Hendriksen,6 Hoekema believes there are seven sections of Revelation that describe the present age. These seven sections give a portrait of conditions on heaven and earth during this period between the two comings of Christ. These seven sections which run parallel to each other are chapters 1-3, 4-7, 8-11, 12-14, 15-16, 17-19 and 20-22. What is significant for our purposes is that amillennialists see Revelation 20:1 as taking the reader back to the beginning of the present age. As Hoekema states, "Revelation 20:1 takes us back once again to the beginning of the New Testament era."7

Amillennialists, thus, do not see a chronological connection between the events of Revelation 19:11-21 that describe the second coming of Christ, and the millennial reign discussed in Revelation 20:1-6. As Hendriksen says, "Rev. 19:19ff. carried us to the very end of history, to the day of final judgment. With Rev. 20 we return to the beginning of our present dispensation."8 The amillennial view sees chapter nineteen as taking the reader up to the second coming, but the beginning of chapter twenty takes him back once again to the beginning of the present age. In other words, the events of Revelation 20:1-6 do not follow the events of Revelation 19:11-21.

THE AMILLENNIAL VIEW OF REVELATION 20:1-3

With the principle of progressive parallelism as his base, the amillennialist holds that the binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 took place at Christ's first coming.9 This binding ushered in the millennial kingdom. As William Cox says,

Having bound Satan, our Lord ushered in the millennial kingdom of Revelation 20. This millennium commenced at the first advent and will end at the second coming, being replaced by the eternal state.10

Thus the present age is the millennium and one characteristic of this millennial period is that Satan is now bound. This binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3, according to the amillennialist, finds support in the Gospels, particularly Jesus' binding of the strong man in Matthew 12:29. As Hoekema states,

Is there any indication in the New Testament that Satan was bound at the time of the first coming of Christ? Indeed there is. When the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of Satan, Jesus replied, "How can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man?" (Mt. 12:29). 11

Hoekema also points out that the word used by Matthew (delta epsilon omega) to describe the binding of the strong man is the same word used in Revelation 20 to describe the binding of Satan.12 In addition to Matthew 12:29, amillennialists believe they have confirming exegetical support from Luke 10:17-18 and John 12:31-32. In Luke 10, when the seventy disciples returned from their mission they said to Jesus, "'Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.'" And He said to them, 'I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning'" (Luke 10:17-18). According to Hoekema, "Jesus saw in the works his disciples were doing an indication that Satan's kingdom had just been dealt a crushing blow-that, in fact, a certain binding of Satan, a certain restriction of his power, had just taken place."13

John 12:31-32, another supporting text used by amillennialists states: "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world shall be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." Hoekema points out that the verb translated "cast out" (epsilon kappa beta alpha lambda lambda omega) is derived from the same root as the word used in Revelation 20:3 when it says an angel "threw [ballo] him into the abyss." 14

What is the significance of this binding of Satan according the amillennial position? This binding has special reference to Satan's ability to deceive the nations during the present age. Because Satan is now bound, he is no longer able to deceive the nations as he did before the first coming of Christ. Before Christ's first coming, all the nations of the world, except Israel, were under the deception of Satan. Except for the occasional person, family or city that came into contact with God's people or His special revelation, Gentiles, as a whole, were shut out from salvation.15 With the coming of Christ, however, Jesus bound Satan, and in so doing, removed his ability to deceive the nations. This binding, though, did not mean a total removal of Satan's activity, for Satan is still active and able to do harm. As Cox says, "Satan now lives on probation until the second coming."16 But while he is bound, Satan is no longer able to prevent the spread of the Gospel nor is he able to destroy the Church. Also, according to amillennialists, the "abyss" to which Satan is assigned is not a place of final punishment but a figurative description of the way Satan's activities are being curbed during this age.17

Hoekema summarizes the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3 by saying,

"We conclude, then, that the binding of Satan during the Gospel age means that, first, he cannot prevent the spread of the gospel, and second, he cannot gather all the enemies of Christ together to attack the church."18

AN ANALYSIS OF THE AMILLENNIAL INTERPRETATION OF REVELATION 20:1-3

Though amillennial scholars have clearly and logically laid out their case for the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3, there are serious hermeneutical, exegetical and theological difficulties with their interpretation of this text.

1) The approach to interpreting Revelation known as "progressive parallelism is highly suspect The first difficulty to be examined is hermeneutical and deals with the amillennial approach to interpreting the Book of Revelation. In order for the amillennial interpretation of Revelation 20:1-3 to be correct, the interpretive approach to Revelation known as "progressive parallelism" must also be accurate. Yet this approach which sees seven sections of Revelation running parallel to each other chronologically is largely unproven and appears arbitrary. As Hoekema admits, the approach of progressive parallelism, "is not without its difficulties."19

The claim that Revelation 20:1 "takes us back once again to the beginning of the New Testament era,"20 does not seem warranted from the text. There certainly are no indicators within the text that the events of Revelation 20:1 take the reader back to the beginning of the present age. Nor are there textual indicators that the events of Revelation 20 should be separated chronologically from the events of Revelation 19:11-21. In fact, the opposite is the case. The events of Revelation 20 seem to follow naturally the events described in Revelation 19:11-21. If one did not have a theological presupposition that the millennium must be fulfilled in the present age, what indicators within the text would indicate that 20:1 takes the reader back to the beginning of the church era? A normal reading indicates that Christ appears from heaven (19:11-19), He destroys his enemies including the beast and the false prophet (19:20-21) and then He deals with Satan by binding him and casting him into the abyss (20:1-3). As Ladd says, "There is absolutely no hint of any recapitulation in chapter 20."21

That John uses the formula "and I saw" (kappa alpha iota  epsilon iota delta omicron nu) at the beginning of Revelation 20:1 also gives reason to believe that what he is describing is taking place in a chronological manner.22 Within Revelation 19-22, this expression is used eight times (19:11, 17, 19; 20:1, 4, 11, 12; 21:1). When John uses "and I saw," he seems to be describing events in that are happening in a chronological progression. Commenting on these eight uses of "and I saw" in this section, Thomas states,

The case favoring chronological sequence in the fulfillment of these scenes is very strong. Progression from Christ's return to the invitation to the birds of prey and from that invitation to the defeat of the beast is obvious. So is the progression from the binding of Satan to the Millennium and final defeat of Satan and from the final defeat to the new heaven and new earth with all this entails. The interpretation allowing for chronological arrangement of these eight scenes is one-sidedly strong. 23

A natural reading of the text indicates that the events of Revelation 20 follow the events of Revelation 19:11-21. It is also significant that Hoekema, himself, admits that a chronological reading of Revelation would naturally lead one to the conclusion that the millennium follows the second coming when he says, "If, then, one thinks of Revelation 20 as describing what follows chronologically after what is described in chapter 19, one would indeed conclude that the millennium of Revelation 20:1-6 will come after the return of Christ.24

Herman Hoyt, when commenting on this statement by Hoekema, rightly stated, "This appears to be a fatal admission."25 And it is. Hoekema admits that a normal reading of Revelation 19 and 20 would not lead one to the amillennial position. In a sense, the amillennialist is asking the reader to disregard the plain meaning of the text for an assumption that has no exegetical warrant. As Hoyt says,

To the average person the effort to move the millennium to a place before the Second Coming of Christ is demanding the human mind to accede to something that does not appear on the face of the text. But even more than that, the effort to make seven divisions cover the same period of time (between the first and second comings) will meet with all sorts of confusion to establish its validity. At best this is a shaky foundation upon which to establish a firm doctrine of the millennium. 26

The hermeneutical foundation of amillennialism is, indeed, a shaky one. The seriousness of this must not be underestimated. For if the amillennialist is wrong on his approach to interpreting the Book of Revelation, his attempt at placing Satan's binding during the present age has suffered a major if not fatal blow.

2) The amillennial view does not adequately do justice to the language of Revelation 20:1-3 According to the amillennial view, Satan is unable to deceive the nations as he did before the first coming of Christ, but he is still active and able to do harm in this age. His activities, then, have not ceased but are limited.27 This, however, does not do justice to what is described in Revelation 20:1-3. According to the text, Satan is "bound" with a "great chain" (vv.1-2) and thrown into the "abyss" that is "shut" and "sealed" for a thousand years (v. 3). This abyss acts as a "prison" (v. 7) until the thousand years are completed. The acts of binding, throwing, shutting and sealing indicate that Satan's activities are completely finished. As Mounce states:

The elaborate measures taken to insure his [Satan's] custody are most easily understood as implying the complete cessation of his influence on earth (rather than a curbing of his activities)."28

Berkouwer, who himself is an amillennialist, admits that the standard amillennial explanation of this text does not do justice to what is described:

Those who interpret the millennium as already realized in the history of the church try to locate this binding in history. Naturally, such an effort is forced to relativize the dimensions of this binding, for it is impossible to find evidence for a radical elimination of Satan's power in that "realized millennium." . . . The necessary relativizing of John's description of Satan's bondage (remember that Revelation 20 speaks of a shut and sealed pit) is then explained by the claim that, although Satan is said to deceive the nations no more (vs. 3), this does not exclude satanic activity in Christendom or individual persons. I think it is pertinent to ask whether this sort of interpretation really does justice to the radical proportions of the binding of Satan-that he will not be freed from imprisonment for a thousand years. 29

The binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is set forth in strong terms that tell of the complete cessation of his activities. The amillennial view that Satan's binding is just a restriction or a "probation," as Cox has stated,30 does not hold up under exegetical scrutiny.

3) The amillennial view conflicts with the New Testament's depiction of Satan's activities in the present age The view that Satan is bound during this age contradicts multiple New Testament passages which show that Satan is presently active and involved in deception. He is "the god of this world [who] has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ" (2 Corinthians 4:4). He is our adversary who "prowls about like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour" (1 Peter 5:8). In the church age he was able to fill the heart of Ananias (Acts 5:3) and "thwart" the work of God's ministers (1 Thess. 2:18). He is one for whom we must protect ourselves from by putting on the whole armor of God (Ephesians 6:10-19). Satan's influence in this age is so great that John declared "the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19). These passages do not depict a being who has been bound and shut up in a pit. As Grudem has rightly commented, "the theme of Satan's continual activity on earth throughout the church age, makes it extremely difficult to think that Satan has been thrown into the bottomless pit."31

What then of the amillennial argument that Matthew 12:29 teaches that Jesus bound Satan at His first coming? The answer is that this verse does not teach that Satan was bound at that time. What Jesus stated in Matthew 12:29 is that in order for kingdom conditions to exist on the earth, Satan must first be bound. He did not say that Satan was bound yet. As Toussaint says:

By this statement He [Jesus] previews John the Apostle's discussion in Revelation 20. Jesus does not say He has bound Satan or is even in the process of doing so. He simply sets the principle before the Pharisees. His works testify to His ability to bind Satan, and therefore they attest His power to establish the kingdom.32

Jesus' casting out of demons (Matt. 12:22-29) was evidence that He was the Messiah of Israel who could bring in the kingdom. His mastery over demons showed that He had the authority to bind Satan. But as the multiple New Testament texts have already affirmed, this binding did not take place at Christ's first coming. It will, though, at His second. What Jesus presented as principle in Matthew 12:29 will come to fulfillment in Revelation 20:1-3.

Luke 10:17-18 and John 12:31-32 certainly tell of Christ's victory over Satan but these passages do not teach that Satan is bound during this age. No Christian denies that the work of Christ, especially his death on the cross, brought a crushing defeat to Satan, but the final outworking of that defeat awaits the second coming. That is why Paul could tell the believers at Rome that "the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet" (Romans 16:20).

For the one contemplating the validity of amillennialism the question must be asked, Does the binding of Satan described in Revelation 20:1-3 accurately describe Satan's condition today? An analysis of multiple scriptural texts along with the present world situation strongly indicates that the answer is No.

4) Satan's deceiving activities continue throughout most of the Book of Revelation According to amillennialists, Satan was bound at the beginning of the Church age and he no longer has the ability to deceive the nations during the present age. But within the main sections of Revelation itself, Satan is pictured as having an ongoing deceptive influence on the nations. If Satan is bound during this age and Revelation describes conditions during this present age, we should expect to see a cessation of his deceptive activities throughout the book. But the opposite is the case. Satan's deception is very strong throughout Revelation. Revelation 12:9, for instance, states that "Satan. . . deceives the whole world." This verse presents Satan as a present deceiver of the world, not one who is bound.33

Satan's deception is also evident in the authority he gives to the first beast (Rev. 13:2) and the second beast who "deceives those who dwell on the earth" (Rev. 13:14). Satan is certainly the energizer of political Babylon of whom it is said, "all the nations were deceived by your sorcery" (Revelation 18:23).

Satan's ability to deceive the nations throughout the Book of Revelation shows that he was not bound at the beginning of the present age. Grudem's note on the mentioned passages is well taken, "it seems more appropriate to say that Satan is now still deceiving the nations, but at the beginning of the millennium this deceptive influence will be removed."34

CONCLUSION

The amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3 that Satan is bound during this age is not convincing and fails in several ways. Hermeneutically it fails in that its approach to interpreting the Book of Revelation is based on the flawed system of progressive parallelism. This system forces unnatural breaks in the text that a normal reading of Revelation does not allow. This is especially true with the awkward break between the millennial events of Revelation 20 and the account of the second coming in Revelation 19:11-21. Exegetically, the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3 does not do justice to the language of the text. The binding described in this passage clearly depicts a complete cessation of Satan's activities-not just a limitation as amillennialists believe. Theologically, the view that Satan is bound today simply does not fit with the multiple New Testament texts that teach otherwise. Nor can the amillennial view be reconciled with the passages within Revelation itself that show Satan as carrying on deceptive activity. To answer the question posed in the title of this work, "Is Satan bound today?" The answer from the biblical evidence is clearly, No.


Footnotes

1. The prefix "a-" means "no." Amillennialism, therefore, means "no millennium."

2. Anthony Hoekema, "Amillennialism," The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views, Robert G. Clouse, ed. (Downers Grove: Inter Varsity, 1977), p. 161.

3. Among amillennial lists there are differences of opinion as to exactly what Christ's millennial reign specifically is. Augustine, Allis and Berkhof believed the millennial reign of Christ refers to the Church on earth. On the other hand, Warfield taught that Christ's kingdom involves deceased saints who are reigning with Christ from heaven.

4. This approach to Revelation can be traced to the African Donatist, Tyconius, a late fourth-century interpreter. Millennium based on a recapitulation method of interpretation. Using this principle Tyconius saw Revelation as containing several different visions that repeated basic themes throughout the book. Tyconius also interpreted the thousand years of Revelation 20:1-6 in nonliteral terms and understood the millennial period as referring to the present age. This recapitulation method was adopted by Augustine and has carried on through many Roman Catholic and Protestant interpreters. See Alan Johnson, "Reve lation,"Expositor's Bible Commentary, Frank E. Gaebelein, ed. (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1981), v. 12, pp. 578-79.

5. Hoekena, pp. 156-57.

6. William Hendriksen, More Than Conquerors (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1940).

7. Hoekema, p. 160.

8. Hendriksen, p. 221.

9. Hendriksen defines what the amillennialist means by "first coming." "When we say 'the first coming' we have reference to all the events associated with it, from the incarnation to the coronation. We may say, therefore, that the binding of satan [sic], according to all these passages, begins with that first coming" Hendriksen, p.226.

10. William E. Cos, Amillennialism Today (Phillipsburg: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1966), p. 58.

11. Hoekema, p. 162.

12. Hoekema, pp. 162-63.

13. Hoekema, p. 163.

14. Hoekema, pp. 163-64.

15. Hoekema, p. 161.

16. Cox, p. 57.

17. Hoekema, p. 161.

18. Hoekema, p. 162.

19. Hoekema, p. 156.

20. Hoekema, p. 160.

21. George Eldon Ladd, "An Historical Premillennial Response," The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views, p. 190.

22. Harold W. Hoehner says, "Though these words are not as forceful a chronological order as 'after these things I saw' ( (meta tauta eidon; 4:1; 7:9; 15:5; 18:1) or 'after these things I heard' ( meta tauta ekousa, 19:1), they do show chronological progression." Harold W. Hoehner, "Evidence from Revelation 20," A case For Premillennialism: A New Consensus, Donald K. Campbell and Jeffrey L. Townsend, eds. (Chicago: Moody Press, 1992), pp. 247-48.

23. Robert. L. Thomas, Revelation 8-22: An Exegetical Commentary (Chicago: Moody, 1995), pp. 247-48.

24. Hoekema, p. 159.

25. Herman A. Hoyt, "A Dispensational Premillennial Response," The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views, p. 193.

26. Hoyt, p. 194.

27. As Cox says, "Satan's binding refers (in figurative language) to the limiting of his power." Cox, p. 59.

28. Robert H. Mounce, The Book of Revelation (Grand Rapids: Eerchnans, 1977), p. 353. Grudem also adds, "More than a mere binding or restriction of activity is in view here. The imagery of throwing Satan into a pit and shutting it and sealing it over him gives a picture of total removal from influence on the earth." Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology

29. G.C.Berkouwer, The Return of Christ, Studies in Dogmatics (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1972), p. 305.

30. Cox, p. 57.

31. Grudem, p. 1118.

32. Stanley D. Toussaint, Behold the King: A Study of Matthew (Portland: Multnomah, 1981), p. 305.

33. The argument that the casting down of Satan in Revelation 12:9 is the same event as the binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 breaks down for two reasons. First, in Revelation 12:9 Satan was thrown from heaven to the earth. But in Revelation 20:1-3 he is taken from the earth to the abyss. Second, in Revelation 12:9 Satan's activities, including his deception of the nations, continue, while in Revelation 20:1-3 his activities are completely stopped as he is shut up and sealed in the abyss.

34. Grudem, p. 1118.


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KEYWORDS: catholiclist; devil; evil; lucifer; satan; thedoc
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To: jude24; xzins
I can't blame you for not following the thread, it's very long.

Acts 7:38, in any translation, is irrelevant. It makes as much sense as this reasoning:

It's the plainest sort of reductionism, fashioned to protect a traditionalistic position. It should hold no temptation for a Reformed Bible reader.

The verse in Acts says nothing about (as I keep saying) the church of Christ, but of the assembly of Israel. But if you insist on the relevance of Acts 7:38, I'd point you to Acts 19:32, 39, and 40, where ekklesia refers to a secular, political assembly. So you see, there is MORE evidence that the ekklesia of Christ is a secular, political assembly than that it is Israel. Which is to say, none, either way.

And of course the OT was written in Hebrew, not Greek. If the use of ekklesia in the LXX were significant, we would expect to see the church of Christ explicitly called Israel in some sense over and over again. But it is not done even once!

I don't know what it is that has drawn you away from the Biblical position. But it isn't the data.

Dan

641 posted on 11/26/2002 5:21:12 PM PST by BibChr
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To: fortheDeclaration
No, we are different then saved Jews and Gentiles in other dispensations
When we are removed at the Rapture, there will be two groups of people again, Jews and Gentiles.

Could I have a scripture that says that there will be "classes" of people in heaven..Those saved by the blood of Christ and those saved by animal sacrifices

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: ~for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.~


642 posted on 11/26/2002 5:22:57 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: CCWoody; Wrigley; jude24; RnMomof7
"Don't get caught without the proper gear to watch the Great White Throne judgment. "

Actually, his post brought back another image:

Standing there alone, the ship is waiting
All systems are go, are you sure ?
Control is not convinced, but the computer has the evidence
No need to abort, the countdown starts

Watching in a trance, the crew is certain
Nothing left to chance, all is working
Trying to relax, up in the capsule Send me up a drink, jokes Major Tom,
the count goes on

4 3 2 1, Earth below us drifting falling
Floating weightless, calling, calling home

Second stage is cut, we're now in orbit
Stabilizers up, runnning perfect
Starting to collect requested data
What will it effect when all is done, thinks Major Tom

Back at ground control, there is a problem
Go to rockets full, not responding
Hello Major Tom, are you receiving
Turn the thrusters on, we're standing by
There's no reply

4 3 2 1, Earth below us, drifting falling
Floating weightless, calling, calling home

Across the stratosphere a final message
Give my wife my love, then nothing more
Far beneath the ship, the world is mourning
They don't realize, he's alive, no one understands
But Major Tom sees, now the life commands
This is my home, I'm coming home

Earth below us, drifting falling
Floating weightless, coming home

Earth below us, drifting falling
Floating weightless, coming home...

Earth below us, drifting falling
floating weightless, coming, coming home....

643 posted on 11/26/2002 5:24:28 PM PST by Jean Chauvin
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To: BibChr
I've seen much of the salient points before, and a lot of this is a rehash of the endless threads from two months ago.

I just don't think you can make as clear-cut a distinction between the Church and Israel as the dispensationalists would have you believe. It's a lot more complicated than it seems.

644 posted on 11/26/2002 5:27:03 PM PST by jude24
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To: RnMomof7
It was the start for me, too.

(Seeing some of who embraced that kind of shocked me.)

645 posted on 11/26/2002 5:28:41 PM PST by jude24
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To: jude24; xzins; Dataman; drstevej
Why not? Can you make a clear-cut distinction between the Church and Babylon? Between the Church and Noah's family? Between the Church and the line of David? Are those muddled and confused to you, as well?

I'd say two things. First, Paul seemingly had no such confusion. "Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God" (1 Corinthians 10:32). He clearly, self-evidently, assumed that his readers would have no problem in distinguishing the three groups. (Imagine the chaos he'd cause saying this to a neo-RC "Reformed" colloquy!)

Second, if you want to go all squishy and spiritualizing and allegorical, be prepared to tell me which aspects of the Christian Church are denoted by "the tower of Hananel," "the Corner Gate," "the hill Gareb," "Goah," "the whole valley of the dead bodies and the ashes," "all the fields as far as the brook Kidron," and "the Horse Gate toward the east" (see Jeremiah 31:27-40). And that's just for starters.

You don't seem to think very deeply about anything I write to you. If you're only going to think deeply about one, this would be a good one.

Dan

646 posted on 11/26/2002 5:35:28 PM PST by BibChr
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To: BibChr; jude24
"I'd point you to Acts 19:32, 39, and 40, where ekklesia refers to a secular, political assembly. So you see, there is MORE evidence that the ekklesia of Christ is a secular, political assembly than that it is Israel"

Siiiiggghh!

I've gone through this one with you already, Dan.

The refernece to ekklesia in Acts 19 is a specific reference to ennomos ekklesia -a lawful assembly

And since there is no such ennomos describing ekklesia in any other ekklesia citation, it is impossible to suggest there is ~any~ evidence at all that the 'church' is a 'secular political assembly' than Israel.

Of course, since your argument is blatantly false, then the opposite is actually true. There is more evidence that the 'church' is Israel than it is a 'secular, political assembly'.

Jean

647 posted on 11/26/2002 5:42:23 PM PST by Jean Chauvin
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To: RnMomof7; drstevej

Billgatezebub

648 posted on 11/26/2002 5:49:08 PM PST by Joshua
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To: RnMomof7

Waiting for my Turkey:)

649 posted on 11/26/2002 6:00:46 PM PST by restornu
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To: Jean Chauvin
Once you kick out the walls and give yourself over to allegorizing and spiritualizing, concrete thought can become very difficult. Let me offer help:
  1. In Acts, how many times is the word ekklesia used of Israel?
  2. In Acts, how many times is the word ekklesia used of a secular political assembly?
  3. Which number is the larger number?
Dan
650 posted on 11/26/2002 6:21:35 PM PST by BibChr
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To: Starwind
So I'm clear on your interpretation, could you please state exactly which verses in Rev 20 are the two "ressurections" and what order they happen, and could you then also show their correspondence to the two ressurections you allude to in John 5?

There are two resurrections mentioned in Revelation 20. The best way to show you these is to print out the passage, as follows:

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Several comments are in order:

First, the parentheses in v.5 are mine, but virtually all expositors recognize that the sentence is, indeed, parenthetical. The near demonstrative pronoun ("this") has to be referring to the "lived" idea in v.4.

The so-called second resurrection is found in the parentheses in v.5 ("lived not again until...")

The "lived" idea has been regarded by commentators as an idea of resurrection, but it actually just says "lived." The Greek word translated as resurrection in vv.5 and 6 is a more conventional word for resurrection.

651 posted on 11/26/2002 6:43:30 PM PST by the_doc
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To: Jean Chauvin; jude24; RnMomof7; gdebrae
If memory serves me that God hater actually grew up in my neck of the woods. Do you suppose that in ftd's world, that the saints will have to use a "star gate" to get raptured out?

BTW, the tinted visor is free with the Saints Suits.com equipment. However, you must provide your own Nike shoes.
652 posted on 11/26/2002 6:50:19 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: jude24; RnMomof7; Jean Chauvin; the_doc; gdebrae
(Seeing some of who embraced that kind of shocked me.) ~ jude24 Woody.
653 posted on 11/26/2002 6:54:09 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: rdb3
I meant to include you as an addressee in that post to Starwind.
654 posted on 11/26/2002 6:54:32 PM PST by the_doc
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To: BibChr
"Once you kick out the walls and give yourself over to allegorizing and spiritualizing, concrete thought can become very difficult.

So, do yo believe that Jesus is going to have a really big sword coming out of his mouth per Revelation 19:15?

Do you believe that Jesus is actually a furry little lamb?

Oh -you mean that ~you~ guys get to decide when to use allegory and spiritualizing and when not to -how selective of you.

"Which number is the larger number?"

It's completely irrelevant, Dan. The Acts 19 use of ekklesia is a specific reference to ennomos ekklesia.

The very fact that this is a description of ennomos ekklesia is what makes this a 'lawful' assembly -or as you put it -a "secular political assembly".

If the "ennomos" was not there in the text -it would not be a reference to a "lawful" assembly.

I'll turn your argument right around on you:

1. In Acts, how many times is the word Israel described as ekklesia?
2. In Acts, how many times is the word Israel used of "lawful assembly" or "ennomos ekklesia"?

3. Which number is larger?

It's completely irrelevant, Dan.

Jean

655 posted on 11/26/2002 6:55:23 PM PST by Jean Chauvin
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To: CCWoody; RnMomof7; Jerry_M
1 Corinthians 11:19 strikes again.
656 posted on 11/26/2002 6:56:15 PM PST by the_doc
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To: Jean Chauvin
You aren't thinking, you're just Defending The Tradition. This is just like witnessing to a Roman Catholic — except that I do believe you're a brother in Christ.

I'll leave a door out. Answer my three simple questions, we'll resume.

Dan

657 posted on 11/26/2002 7:02:15 PM PST by BibChr
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To: the_doc; RnMomof7; Jerry_M
Seen on a sign on a Church of Christ around the corner from my house: "Denominationalism is sin"
658 posted on 11/26/2002 7:03:31 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody
To my understanding, these people are still out there!

Heaven's Gate Cult

Could it be?????

Jean

659 posted on 11/26/2002 7:12:33 PM PST by Jean Chauvin
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To: the_doc
The so-called second resurrection is found in the parentheses in v.5 ("lived not again until...")

So, if I follow correctly, implicitly then the dead at the white throne judgement are the 2nd "resurrection". Right?

Rev 20:11-14
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And so upon the 2nd "resurrection" these souls are immediately judged to condemnation, the 2nd death (according to works, not according to justification in Christ). Right?

Since they were already dead spiritually and physically, and condemned (thus not spiritually resurrected), their resurrection was only physical for the purposes of judgement and condemnation. Right?

But your answer didn't include corresponding these two resurrections to John 5:25-28. Could you do that please?

660 posted on 11/26/2002 7:14:56 PM PST by Starwind
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