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Is Satan Bound Today?
BibleBB ^ | Mike Vlach

Posted on 11/14/2002 11:56:40 AM PST by xzins

An Analysis of the Amillennial Interpretation of Revelation 20:1-3.

1 And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
3 and threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he should not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time (Revelation 20:1-3).

One distinctive of amillennial theology is the belief that Satan is bound during this present age. This belief stems from an interpretation that sees the binding of Satan described in Revelation 20:1-3 as being fulfilled today. The purpose of this work is examine the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3 and address the question, "Is Satan bound today?" In doing this, our evaluation will include the following: 1) a brief definition of amillennialism; 2) a look at the amillennial approach to interpreting Revelation; 3) an explanation and analysis of the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3; and 4) some concluding thoughts.

DEFINITION OF AMILLENNIALISM

Amillennialism is the view that there will be no future reign of Christ on the earth for a thousand years.1 Instead, the thousand year reign of Christ mentioned six times in Revelation 20 is being fulfilled during the present age. According to amillennialists, the "thousand years" is not a literal thousand years but is figurative for "a very long period of indeterminate length." 2 Thus the millennium of Revelation 20:1-6 describes the conditions of the present age between the two comings of Christ. During this period Satan is bound (Rev. 20:1-3) and Christ's Kingdom is being fulfilled (Rev. 20:4-6).3

THE AMILLENNIAL APPROACH TO INTERPRETING REVELATION

Before looking specifically at how amillennialists interpret Revelation 20:1-3, it is important to understand how they approach the Book of Revelation. Amillennialists base their interpretation of the Book of Revelation on a system of interpretation known as progressive parallelism. This interpretive system does not view the events of Revelation from a chronological or sequential perspective but, instead, sees the book as describing the church age from several parallel perspectives that run concurrently. 4 Anthony Hoekema, an amillennialist, describes progressive parallelism in the following manner:

According to this view, the book of Revelation consists of seven sections which run parallel to each other, each of which depicts the church and the world from the time of Christ's first coming to the time of his second.5

Following the work of William Hendriksen,6 Hoekema believes there are seven sections of Revelation that describe the present age. These seven sections give a portrait of conditions on heaven and earth during this period between the two comings of Christ. These seven sections which run parallel to each other are chapters 1-3, 4-7, 8-11, 12-14, 15-16, 17-19 and 20-22. What is significant for our purposes is that amillennialists see Revelation 20:1 as taking the reader back to the beginning of the present age. As Hoekema states, "Revelation 20:1 takes us back once again to the beginning of the New Testament era."7

Amillennialists, thus, do not see a chronological connection between the events of Revelation 19:11-21 that describe the second coming of Christ, and the millennial reign discussed in Revelation 20:1-6. As Hendriksen says, "Rev. 19:19ff. carried us to the very end of history, to the day of final judgment. With Rev. 20 we return to the beginning of our present dispensation."8 The amillennial view sees chapter nineteen as taking the reader up to the second coming, but the beginning of chapter twenty takes him back once again to the beginning of the present age. In other words, the events of Revelation 20:1-6 do not follow the events of Revelation 19:11-21.

THE AMILLENNIAL VIEW OF REVELATION 20:1-3

With the principle of progressive parallelism as his base, the amillennialist holds that the binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 took place at Christ's first coming.9 This binding ushered in the millennial kingdom. As William Cox says,

Having bound Satan, our Lord ushered in the millennial kingdom of Revelation 20. This millennium commenced at the first advent and will end at the second coming, being replaced by the eternal state.10

Thus the present age is the millennium and one characteristic of this millennial period is that Satan is now bound. This binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3, according to the amillennialist, finds support in the Gospels, particularly Jesus' binding of the strong man in Matthew 12:29. As Hoekema states,

Is there any indication in the New Testament that Satan was bound at the time of the first coming of Christ? Indeed there is. When the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of Satan, Jesus replied, "How can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man?" (Mt. 12:29). 11

Hoekema also points out that the word used by Matthew (delta epsilon omega) to describe the binding of the strong man is the same word used in Revelation 20 to describe the binding of Satan.12 In addition to Matthew 12:29, amillennialists believe they have confirming exegetical support from Luke 10:17-18 and John 12:31-32. In Luke 10, when the seventy disciples returned from their mission they said to Jesus, "'Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.'" And He said to them, 'I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning'" (Luke 10:17-18). According to Hoekema, "Jesus saw in the works his disciples were doing an indication that Satan's kingdom had just been dealt a crushing blow-that, in fact, a certain binding of Satan, a certain restriction of his power, had just taken place."13

John 12:31-32, another supporting text used by amillennialists states: "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world shall be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." Hoekema points out that the verb translated "cast out" (epsilon kappa beta alpha lambda lambda omega) is derived from the same root as the word used in Revelation 20:3 when it says an angel "threw [ballo] him into the abyss." 14

What is the significance of this binding of Satan according the amillennial position? This binding has special reference to Satan's ability to deceive the nations during the present age. Because Satan is now bound, he is no longer able to deceive the nations as he did before the first coming of Christ. Before Christ's first coming, all the nations of the world, except Israel, were under the deception of Satan. Except for the occasional person, family or city that came into contact with God's people or His special revelation, Gentiles, as a whole, were shut out from salvation.15 With the coming of Christ, however, Jesus bound Satan, and in so doing, removed his ability to deceive the nations. This binding, though, did not mean a total removal of Satan's activity, for Satan is still active and able to do harm. As Cox says, "Satan now lives on probation until the second coming."16 But while he is bound, Satan is no longer able to prevent the spread of the Gospel nor is he able to destroy the Church. Also, according to amillennialists, the "abyss" to which Satan is assigned is not a place of final punishment but a figurative description of the way Satan's activities are being curbed during this age.17

Hoekema summarizes the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3 by saying,

"We conclude, then, that the binding of Satan during the Gospel age means that, first, he cannot prevent the spread of the gospel, and second, he cannot gather all the enemies of Christ together to attack the church."18

AN ANALYSIS OF THE AMILLENNIAL INTERPRETATION OF REVELATION 20:1-3

Though amillennial scholars have clearly and logically laid out their case for the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3, there are serious hermeneutical, exegetical and theological difficulties with their interpretation of this text.

1) The approach to interpreting Revelation known as "progressive parallelism is highly suspect The first difficulty to be examined is hermeneutical and deals with the amillennial approach to interpreting the Book of Revelation. In order for the amillennial interpretation of Revelation 20:1-3 to be correct, the interpretive approach to Revelation known as "progressive parallelism" must also be accurate. Yet this approach which sees seven sections of Revelation running parallel to each other chronologically is largely unproven and appears arbitrary. As Hoekema admits, the approach of progressive parallelism, "is not without its difficulties."19

The claim that Revelation 20:1 "takes us back once again to the beginning of the New Testament era,"20 does not seem warranted from the text. There certainly are no indicators within the text that the events of Revelation 20:1 take the reader back to the beginning of the present age. Nor are there textual indicators that the events of Revelation 20 should be separated chronologically from the events of Revelation 19:11-21. In fact, the opposite is the case. The events of Revelation 20 seem to follow naturally the events described in Revelation 19:11-21. If one did not have a theological presupposition that the millennium must be fulfilled in the present age, what indicators within the text would indicate that 20:1 takes the reader back to the beginning of the church era? A normal reading indicates that Christ appears from heaven (19:11-19), He destroys his enemies including the beast and the false prophet (19:20-21) and then He deals with Satan by binding him and casting him into the abyss (20:1-3). As Ladd says, "There is absolutely no hint of any recapitulation in chapter 20."21

That John uses the formula "and I saw" (kappa alpha iota  epsilon iota delta omicron nu) at the beginning of Revelation 20:1 also gives reason to believe that what he is describing is taking place in a chronological manner.22 Within Revelation 19-22, this expression is used eight times (19:11, 17, 19; 20:1, 4, 11, 12; 21:1). When John uses "and I saw," he seems to be describing events in that are happening in a chronological progression. Commenting on these eight uses of "and I saw" in this section, Thomas states,

The case favoring chronological sequence in the fulfillment of these scenes is very strong. Progression from Christ's return to the invitation to the birds of prey and from that invitation to the defeat of the beast is obvious. So is the progression from the binding of Satan to the Millennium and final defeat of Satan and from the final defeat to the new heaven and new earth with all this entails. The interpretation allowing for chronological arrangement of these eight scenes is one-sidedly strong. 23

A natural reading of the text indicates that the events of Revelation 20 follow the events of Revelation 19:11-21. It is also significant that Hoekema, himself, admits that a chronological reading of Revelation would naturally lead one to the conclusion that the millennium follows the second coming when he says, "If, then, one thinks of Revelation 20 as describing what follows chronologically after what is described in chapter 19, one would indeed conclude that the millennium of Revelation 20:1-6 will come after the return of Christ.24

Herman Hoyt, when commenting on this statement by Hoekema, rightly stated, "This appears to be a fatal admission."25 And it is. Hoekema admits that a normal reading of Revelation 19 and 20 would not lead one to the amillennial position. In a sense, the amillennialist is asking the reader to disregard the plain meaning of the text for an assumption that has no exegetical warrant. As Hoyt says,

To the average person the effort to move the millennium to a place before the Second Coming of Christ is demanding the human mind to accede to something that does not appear on the face of the text. But even more than that, the effort to make seven divisions cover the same period of time (between the first and second comings) will meet with all sorts of confusion to establish its validity. At best this is a shaky foundation upon which to establish a firm doctrine of the millennium. 26

The hermeneutical foundation of amillennialism is, indeed, a shaky one. The seriousness of this must not be underestimated. For if the amillennialist is wrong on his approach to interpreting the Book of Revelation, his attempt at placing Satan's binding during the present age has suffered a major if not fatal blow.

2) The amillennial view does not adequately do justice to the language of Revelation 20:1-3 According to the amillennial view, Satan is unable to deceive the nations as he did before the first coming of Christ, but he is still active and able to do harm in this age. His activities, then, have not ceased but are limited.27 This, however, does not do justice to what is described in Revelation 20:1-3. According to the text, Satan is "bound" with a "great chain" (vv.1-2) and thrown into the "abyss" that is "shut" and "sealed" for a thousand years (v. 3). This abyss acts as a "prison" (v. 7) until the thousand years are completed. The acts of binding, throwing, shutting and sealing indicate that Satan's activities are completely finished. As Mounce states:

The elaborate measures taken to insure his [Satan's] custody are most easily understood as implying the complete cessation of his influence on earth (rather than a curbing of his activities)."28

Berkouwer, who himself is an amillennialist, admits that the standard amillennial explanation of this text does not do justice to what is described:

Those who interpret the millennium as already realized in the history of the church try to locate this binding in history. Naturally, such an effort is forced to relativize the dimensions of this binding, for it is impossible to find evidence for a radical elimination of Satan's power in that "realized millennium." . . . The necessary relativizing of John's description of Satan's bondage (remember that Revelation 20 speaks of a shut and sealed pit) is then explained by the claim that, although Satan is said to deceive the nations no more (vs. 3), this does not exclude satanic activity in Christendom or individual persons. I think it is pertinent to ask whether this sort of interpretation really does justice to the radical proportions of the binding of Satan-that he will not be freed from imprisonment for a thousand years. 29

The binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is set forth in strong terms that tell of the complete cessation of his activities. The amillennial view that Satan's binding is just a restriction or a "probation," as Cox has stated,30 does not hold up under exegetical scrutiny.

3) The amillennial view conflicts with the New Testament's depiction of Satan's activities in the present age The view that Satan is bound during this age contradicts multiple New Testament passages which show that Satan is presently active and involved in deception. He is "the god of this world [who] has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ" (2 Corinthians 4:4). He is our adversary who "prowls about like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour" (1 Peter 5:8). In the church age he was able to fill the heart of Ananias (Acts 5:3) and "thwart" the work of God's ministers (1 Thess. 2:18). He is one for whom we must protect ourselves from by putting on the whole armor of God (Ephesians 6:10-19). Satan's influence in this age is so great that John declared "the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19). These passages do not depict a being who has been bound and shut up in a pit. As Grudem has rightly commented, "the theme of Satan's continual activity on earth throughout the church age, makes it extremely difficult to think that Satan has been thrown into the bottomless pit."31

What then of the amillennial argument that Matthew 12:29 teaches that Jesus bound Satan at His first coming? The answer is that this verse does not teach that Satan was bound at that time. What Jesus stated in Matthew 12:29 is that in order for kingdom conditions to exist on the earth, Satan must first be bound. He did not say that Satan was bound yet. As Toussaint says:

By this statement He [Jesus] previews John the Apostle's discussion in Revelation 20. Jesus does not say He has bound Satan or is even in the process of doing so. He simply sets the principle before the Pharisees. His works testify to His ability to bind Satan, and therefore they attest His power to establish the kingdom.32

Jesus' casting out of demons (Matt. 12:22-29) was evidence that He was the Messiah of Israel who could bring in the kingdom. His mastery over demons showed that He had the authority to bind Satan. But as the multiple New Testament texts have already affirmed, this binding did not take place at Christ's first coming. It will, though, at His second. What Jesus presented as principle in Matthew 12:29 will come to fulfillment in Revelation 20:1-3.

Luke 10:17-18 and John 12:31-32 certainly tell of Christ's victory over Satan but these passages do not teach that Satan is bound during this age. No Christian denies that the work of Christ, especially his death on the cross, brought a crushing defeat to Satan, but the final outworking of that defeat awaits the second coming. That is why Paul could tell the believers at Rome that "the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet" (Romans 16:20).

For the one contemplating the validity of amillennialism the question must be asked, Does the binding of Satan described in Revelation 20:1-3 accurately describe Satan's condition today? An analysis of multiple scriptural texts along with the present world situation strongly indicates that the answer is No.

4) Satan's deceiving activities continue throughout most of the Book of Revelation According to amillennialists, Satan was bound at the beginning of the Church age and he no longer has the ability to deceive the nations during the present age. But within the main sections of Revelation itself, Satan is pictured as having an ongoing deceptive influence on the nations. If Satan is bound during this age and Revelation describes conditions during this present age, we should expect to see a cessation of his deceptive activities throughout the book. But the opposite is the case. Satan's deception is very strong throughout Revelation. Revelation 12:9, for instance, states that "Satan. . . deceives the whole world." This verse presents Satan as a present deceiver of the world, not one who is bound.33

Satan's deception is also evident in the authority he gives to the first beast (Rev. 13:2) and the second beast who "deceives those who dwell on the earth" (Rev. 13:14). Satan is certainly the energizer of political Babylon of whom it is said, "all the nations were deceived by your sorcery" (Revelation 18:23).

Satan's ability to deceive the nations throughout the Book of Revelation shows that he was not bound at the beginning of the present age. Grudem's note on the mentioned passages is well taken, "it seems more appropriate to say that Satan is now still deceiving the nations, but at the beginning of the millennium this deceptive influence will be removed."34

CONCLUSION

The amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3 that Satan is bound during this age is not convincing and fails in several ways. Hermeneutically it fails in that its approach to interpreting the Book of Revelation is based on the flawed system of progressive parallelism. This system forces unnatural breaks in the text that a normal reading of Revelation does not allow. This is especially true with the awkward break between the millennial events of Revelation 20 and the account of the second coming in Revelation 19:11-21. Exegetically, the amillennial view of Revelation 20:1-3 does not do justice to the language of the text. The binding described in this passage clearly depicts a complete cessation of Satan's activities-not just a limitation as amillennialists believe. Theologically, the view that Satan is bound today simply does not fit with the multiple New Testament texts that teach otherwise. Nor can the amillennial view be reconciled with the passages within Revelation itself that show Satan as carrying on deceptive activity. To answer the question posed in the title of this work, "Is Satan bound today?" The answer from the biblical evidence is clearly, No.


Footnotes

1. The prefix "a-" means "no." Amillennialism, therefore, means "no millennium."

2. Anthony Hoekema, "Amillennialism," The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views, Robert G. Clouse, ed. (Downers Grove: Inter Varsity, 1977), p. 161.

3. Among amillennial lists there are differences of opinion as to exactly what Christ's millennial reign specifically is. Augustine, Allis and Berkhof believed the millennial reign of Christ refers to the Church on earth. On the other hand, Warfield taught that Christ's kingdom involves deceased saints who are reigning with Christ from heaven.

4. This approach to Revelation can be traced to the African Donatist, Tyconius, a late fourth-century interpreter. Millennium based on a recapitulation method of interpretation. Using this principle Tyconius saw Revelation as containing several different visions that repeated basic themes throughout the book. Tyconius also interpreted the thousand years of Revelation 20:1-6 in nonliteral terms and understood the millennial period as referring to the present age. This recapitulation method was adopted by Augustine and has carried on through many Roman Catholic and Protestant interpreters. See Alan Johnson, "Reve lation,"Expositor's Bible Commentary, Frank E. Gaebelein, ed. (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1981), v. 12, pp. 578-79.

5. Hoekena, pp. 156-57.

6. William Hendriksen, More Than Conquerors (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1940).

7. Hoekema, p. 160.

8. Hendriksen, p. 221.

9. Hendriksen defines what the amillennialist means by "first coming." "When we say 'the first coming' we have reference to all the events associated with it, from the incarnation to the coronation. We may say, therefore, that the binding of satan [sic], according to all these passages, begins with that first coming" Hendriksen, p.226.

10. William E. Cos, Amillennialism Today (Phillipsburg: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1966), p. 58.

11. Hoekema, p. 162.

12. Hoekema, pp. 162-63.

13. Hoekema, p. 163.

14. Hoekema, pp. 163-64.

15. Hoekema, p. 161.

16. Cox, p. 57.

17. Hoekema, p. 161.

18. Hoekema, p. 162.

19. Hoekema, p. 156.

20. Hoekema, p. 160.

21. George Eldon Ladd, "An Historical Premillennial Response," The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views, p. 190.

22. Harold W. Hoehner says, "Though these words are not as forceful a chronological order as 'after these things I saw' ( (meta tauta eidon; 4:1; 7:9; 15:5; 18:1) or 'after these things I heard' ( meta tauta ekousa, 19:1), they do show chronological progression." Harold W. Hoehner, "Evidence from Revelation 20," A case For Premillennialism: A New Consensus, Donald K. Campbell and Jeffrey L. Townsend, eds. (Chicago: Moody Press, 1992), pp. 247-48.

23. Robert. L. Thomas, Revelation 8-22: An Exegetical Commentary (Chicago: Moody, 1995), pp. 247-48.

24. Hoekema, p. 159.

25. Herman A. Hoyt, "A Dispensational Premillennial Response," The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views, p. 193.

26. Hoyt, p. 194.

27. As Cox says, "Satan's binding refers (in figurative language) to the limiting of his power." Cox, p. 59.

28. Robert H. Mounce, The Book of Revelation (Grand Rapids: Eerchnans, 1977), p. 353. Grudem also adds, "More than a mere binding or restriction of activity is in view here. The imagery of throwing Satan into a pit and shutting it and sealing it over him gives a picture of total removal from influence on the earth." Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology

29. G.C.Berkouwer, The Return of Christ, Studies in Dogmatics (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1972), p. 305.

30. Cox, p. 57.

31. Grudem, p. 1118.

32. Stanley D. Toussaint, Behold the King: A Study of Matthew (Portland: Multnomah, 1981), p. 305.

33. The argument that the casting down of Satan in Revelation 12:9 is the same event as the binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 breaks down for two reasons. First, in Revelation 12:9 Satan was thrown from heaven to the earth. But in Revelation 20:1-3 he is taken from the earth to the abyss. Second, in Revelation 12:9 Satan's activities, including his deception of the nations, continue, while in Revelation 20:1-3 his activities are completely stopped as he is shut up and sealed in the abyss.

34. Grudem, p. 1118.


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TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; devil; evil; lucifer; satan; thedoc
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To: the_doc; xzins; gracebeliever; Starwind; Seven_0; Frumanchu; nobdysfool; Jerry_M; drstevej; ...
So, if you want me to regard you as a Christian, you are going to have to recant an awful lot of stuff.

Gee xzins. doc apparently thinks he can rip your name out of the Book of Life...

...too bad he doesn't even have a Library Card.

2,061 posted on 12/12/2002 1:28:50 PM PST by Corin Stormhands
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To: gracebeliever; jude24; Jerry_M
The kingdom wasn't there then, and it's not here yet today. ~ "grace"believer Woody.
2,062 posted on 12/12/2002 1:33:36 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: the_doc; xzins
***So, if you want me to regard you as a Christian, you are going to have to recant an awful lot of stuff.***

For we must all appear before the confessional of the_doc; that every one may receive his mark on on the forehead, according to that the_doc deems acceptable...

2,063 posted on 12/12/2002 1:37:14 PM PST by drstevej
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To: Starwind; xzins; Corin Stormhands
Yet another well-reasoned, well-documented, well-written post!

Amen!

2,064 posted on 12/12/2002 1:54:26 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: Corin Stormhands; CCWoody; xzins
Now, one more time, the gospel has a proper name that is exactly 5 words and the gospel can be expressed in exactly 3 words. Can you do it?

I find the Gospel is 1Cor. 15:3-4, that Jesus, died for our sins, was buried and rose again according to the Scriptures.

Paul says any other Gospel is a false Gospel (Gal.1:8)

So, let us see if Woody's 'Gospel' matches that of the Bible.

2,065 posted on 12/12/2002 1:58:33 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: drstevej; Corin Stormhands; the_doc
***So, if you want me to regard you as a Christian, you are going to have to recant an awful lot of stuff.***

Shucks, guys. Sometimes I think he's just funnin' with me, pullin' my leg, makin' fun of the slow kid.... ya know what I mean?

2,066 posted on 12/12/2002 2:07:11 PM PST by xzins
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To: drstevej; Frumanchu; nobdysfool; Jerry_M
See James 3:1, brother Pastor. Compare it with the warning to pastors in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15--another passage which the dispensationalists have not taken very seriously.

Frankly, I would hate to be standing in your shoes on Judgment Day. You have one of the most Biblically flippant attitudes I have ever seen in a pastor. It thoroughly explains why you mock my sober, nouthetic approach.

You need to face the music squarely in John 5:25-29. You need to face the fact that DTS is turning out a lot of ministers who aren't necessarily very good ministers after all.

My point here is that millennial doctrine is not all that hard. But you fellows, having bought into an error and founded an entire seminary on that very error, can't escape the error. It's because of your party spirit. It's unthinkable for you to admit that you haven't understood the gospel as well as you certainly should have.

If you have nothing substantive to contribute in the way of expositional theology concerning the central dispute over John 5:25-29, you really ought to back off and start listening to more Biblically qualified teachers than you. And oddly enough, I am one of those who does happen to know whereof he speaks.

Look, I didn't ask for this role of trying to help you against your proud will. But here I am. I really do care about the Truth in a way which seems alien to you. So, if you can only pop off at a reasonably competent Bible teacher through your unscriptural jokes, I will be forced to make you look bad every time. You see, this is not a game for me.

But come to think of it, if you try to defend your premillennial position, I promise to make you look bad in that, too.

You can't win in this. This is no "artificially nice" seminary classroom with a lot of chatty brats who don't even understand the warning contained in James 3:1.

Come on, brother, Buy the Truth and sell it not. This matter is more serious than you have realized.

2,067 posted on 12/12/2002 2:13:38 PM PST by the_doc
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To: gracebeliever; ksen; Jerry_M; jude24
Apparently you believe God saved you without you responding to His Word. ~ "grace"believer I suppose you think that's His grace because you've always been saved. How wrong that is since we're all born spiritually dead and need life. Christ, Himself, said that His words are "life." ~ "grace"believer Furthermore if by grace God saved you from your birth, or possibly before, then His grace doesn't apply to all, which flies in the face of His statement through Paul that His will is for all men to be saved,1Tim. 2:4, not some, or only Calvinists, or Baptists, or Catholics or Jews or ... Compare this verse with Mt. 20:28 where Christ says He came to "give his life a ransom for many." ~ "grace"believer Woody.

P.S. Just because the apostolic preaching of the gospel of the kingdom of God is the method by which faith comes to a sinner does not mean that faith is not a work of the grace of God.

We all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. Beholding is becoming. Seeing Christ saves and sanctifies. Therefore, the Lord opened my blind eyes to see and I saw what was lacking in the afflictions of Christ.

BTW, I'm outta here! The south counties are overrun with horrible bloodthirsty creatures called deer and I am called to stem the tide of the menace.
2,068 posted on 12/12/2002 2:15:31 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: the_doc
Please understand that my flippancy is a measure of my respect for you.
2,069 posted on 12/12/2002 2:19:28 PM PST by drstevej
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To: drstevej; Frumanchu; nobdysfool; Jerry_M
My point, of course, is that you have to grapple with the expositional (and therefore hermeneutical) points contained in my #2060.

You have refused--because you can't. (Gosh, if you were to address my arguments honestly, you would immediately become an amill. And that is manifestly unthinkable for too-proud DTS grads.)

2,070 posted on 12/12/2002 2:19:57 PM PST by the_doc
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To: Corin Stormhands
Gee xzins. doc apparently thinks he can rip your name out of the Book of Life...

Come on corin that is ~NOT~ what doc said..he said regard him as a Christian..in plain english that means treat his words with the weight of a christian ..

Please lets not put words in each others mouths ok?

2,071 posted on 12/12/2002 2:20:50 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: the_doc; xzins; gracebeliever; Starwind; Seven_0; Frumanchu; nobdysfool; Jerry_M
doc, I've gotten to the place where I am really disturbed in my spirit by your pronouncements about the spiritual state of those who do not agree with you, no matter how right you think you are. All I can say is, I'm glad you are not God, because if you were, I could understand Satan rebelling against you.

I think it's great that you are so convinced of your position, but try as I will, I cannot resolve the points I see where you have presupposed certain things (the very thing you accuse us of). I'm not going to go into the points now, but I have addressed them in the past, over the course of many posts.

My main objection is that you have more or less set yourself up as judge and jury here, with regard to other people's salvation. That you should not do. Oh, you can do it (you have been) but not with God's blessing or unction. You do not have a corner on the truth, nor are you set in authority over us. Your opinions are your own, and you are entitled to them. Please afford the rest of us the same courtesy.

I love the Lord Jesus Christ with all my heart. I pray daily that He will teach me from His Word, grant me Wisdom and Knowledge, and enable me to not only know the Word, but live it as well. I have been His for 31 years. So when you tell me, or anyone else who has serious disagreement with your Amil position, that to disagree with you is to not be Christian, and to question the state of a person's soul on that basis, I must object to your taking a role that you're neither suited nor equipped for: that of a judge and jury. Your opinions about my salvation, or that of anyone else here would be better kept to yourself.

2,072 posted on 12/12/2002 2:21:49 PM PST by nobdysfool
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To: lockeliberty; xzins; Corin Stormhands
So Grace then is God saving those who are smart enough to choose him?

No, Grace shows what how wicked we are, that we are going to hell, and that we cannot save ourselves.

Believing that revelation from the Holy Spirit humbles the individual so he repents (turns) from self to the only one who can save Him, Christ.

That is simple obedience (Jn.6:29) which no man can take 'credit' for since it is not a work (Rom.4:4-5) but that which we were commanded to do,

So likewise, ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants, we have done that which was our duty to do (Lk.17:10)

Instead of seeing that man is involved in salvation in responding by faith (not a work) to the free gift, you would rather make God the author of sin and twist clear scriptures such as 2Tim.2:4, Jn.3:16, 2Pet.3:9, etc.

Man is either going to hell because God could save all, but will not to, or because God would save all, but cannot not.

The second is true because God's love will not make anyone respond to His love.

Moreover, no Calvinist can give one objective reason why God would choose him and not someone else for salvation.

Did God put your name in a hat and out it came?

Calvinism gives more of a basis for more self-righteous pride then Arminianism, since you were the one that God chose and God, for some reason, rejected the others, even though all equally deserved the same fate.

You can hide that pride behind a lot of false rhetoric, but it comes out the same attitude that the Pharissee had in Lk 18:11.

The followig verse says, for everyman that humblteth himself shall be exalted.(Lk.18:14)

Thus, humbling oneself is what God wants, and the humbling comes in response to the revelation by the Holy Spirit that we are sinners and need a saviour, not by being regenerated first and then believing.

2,073 posted on 12/12/2002 2:23:57 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: RnMomof7; Corin Stormhands
Evidently Corin and the boys think that it is perfectly OK to believe that God does not know the future and still be treated like a Christian. It's part of that anything goes as long as you say you believe mentality.
2,074 posted on 12/12/2002 2:27:44 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: drstevej; Frumanchu; nobdysfool; Jerry_M; RnMomof7
I notice that you are just ducking me again.

One of my serious complaints against a lot of DTS grads that I have met is that they have been taught to use aloofness as a thing of pastoral power, as a kind of pastoral sceptre.

It's phony. A lot of their devotees love it, but I find it loathesome.

The aloofness of which I am speaking is different from being dogmatic, from being confrontational. Based on what I have observed, DTS grads often just want to project the attitude that they are too important to be bothered by stuff which might get them "dirty."

In the meantime, I get to endure your sarcasm for doing a proper job--the very one which you simply refuse to do.

2,075 posted on 12/12/2002 2:31:22 PM PST by the_doc
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To: the_doc

2,076 posted on 12/12/2002 2:42:28 PM PST by drstevej
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To: fortheDeclaration
Moreover, no Calvinist can give one objective reason why God would choose him and not someone else for salvation. Did God put your name in a hat and out it came? Calvinism gives more of a basis for more self-righteous pride then Arminianism, since you were the one that God chose and God, for some reason, rejected the others, even though all equally deserved the same fate. You can hide that pride behind a lot of false rhetoric, but it comes out the same attitude that the Pharissee had in Lk 18:11.

This shows a complete misunderstanding of Calvinism. There may be some Calvinists who think God picked them because of something in them. I'll quote a hymn, since hymns are often a good window into what people believe:

On such love, my soul, still ponder,
Love so great, so rich, so free;
Say, whilst lost in holy wonder,
Why, O Lord such love to me?
Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
Grace shall reign eternally!

-- "Sovereign Grace O'er Sin Abounding,"
John Kent

Every Calvinist I know realizes that there is absolutely nothing to commend themselves to God. I know that God didn't choose me based on anything good about myself. Spurgeon said, "It's a good thing God choose me before I was born. He certainly would not have done so afterwards."

I can't speak for all Calvinists (a lot of Calvinists have good doctrine, but are not themselves regenerate), but all the ones I know are the most humble.

Incidentally, the Arminian is the one who must believe that God's election is based on something good in themselves. Most Arminians believe God's election is based on His foreknowledge of what your choice will be, correct? For that to be the case, it must follow that YOU make the choice. For YOU to make the choice, there must be something good in you to make you make that choice -- intelligence, spiritual affinity, whatever. But that you and I would both agree is unscriptural. Thus, you have a small contradiction.

2,077 posted on 12/12/2002 2:55:08 PM PST by jude24
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To: fortheDeclaration
Instead of seeing that man is involved in salvation in responding by faith (not a work) to the free gift

Faith is the free gift. (Eph.2) LOL

Moreover, no Calvinist can give one objective reason why God would choose him and not someone else for salvation.

LOL

Still trying to compare God to your puny human reasoning.

LOL

2,078 posted on 12/12/2002 4:02:59 PM PST by lockeliberty
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To: nobdysfool; the_doc; drstevej
Among the many things that xzins flirts around for which persons like the_doc and I treat him as if he is not saved is the idea that God simply doesn't know what is going to happen tomorrow. So, you tell me, is denying the fundamental nature of God a fatal heresy or just an amusing plaything?

xzins also maintains that if you pray, you can actually alter what God already knows.

etc.
2,079 posted on 12/12/2002 4:08:56 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: lockeliberty
that man is involved in salvation ~ not lockeliberty Woody.

P.S. Wish me luck. We need to take 6 does from this lease in 2 weeks. I'm taking 8 rounds so I should have way too much ammo.
2,080 posted on 12/12/2002 4:12:46 PM PST by CCWoody
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