Fair enough.
Not one single American has lost a right that they didn’t already have before this Administration took office.
Well, maybe except the rights to be secure in our papers and persons. The Patriot Act took care of that with providing a mechanism for the FBI to enter our HOMES, remove and/or copy whatever they see fit and then not even tell us about it, again, unless they see fit. Private property rights are one of the fundamental rights that all others stem from. If we do not posses a right to be secure in our persons and personal papers, then the government pretty well has carte blanche to do with us as it wills. Something else regarding the Patriot Act that you may or may not be aware of - it was drafted and written months before 9/11. I suppose they just had it lying around just in case something happened? This would have been passed under Krintoon if they thought they could have gotten away with it without the folks in 'fly-over country' stretching their precious necks.
Until you have a single ruling made by the Supreme Court that anything currently taking place is unconstitutional then by definition the above statement is fact. It may well be that they do make a ruling in the future that something being done was unconstitutional but until that time you have no basis to assert that the Bush Administration is knowingly and intentionally violating anyone's constitutional rights.
I point out yet again that it would appear that most of those in DC right now believe our Constitution is printed on rubber instead of paper just like they did when Clinton was in the White House. Nothing has changed there. We still have judges effectively legislating from the bench and no one seems to care. Laws passed by Congress are subject to a 'constitution check' by the Supreme Court who is charged with deciding whether their laws are constitutional or not. Sadly, these black-robed justices, for the most part, have forgotten what it is they are charged with doing. It strikes me as funny that when lawyers working for the government say a certain thing is so, that many people just blindly accept it, yet, when lawyers in everyday life ascertain something, it is immediately questioned because most folks thing they're all ambulance-chasing crooks. Double standards, anyone?
There has been a tremendous amount of Federal Government creep in our country that has occurred ever since the civil war.
Does this somehow make it right? No, of course not. It's just that a great many people have grown so accustomed to only knowing how it's been done during their own lifetimes that they can't see how far we've regressed during just the last 40 years! The federal government is growing exponentially and nobody ever seems to really care unless it's someone in the 'other' party doing the encroaching. Some of us don't care which (or any) party is subverting the ideals that this Country was founded on. We only seek to point out that it IS being done and that it is not right.
It is something to vigilantly monitor and address but it is separate from the current discussion of preventing further terrorist attacks against our nation and removing Saddam Hussein from power. The spirit of the two and the motivating factors involved are wholly separate.
The two can not be separated like that. As Ben Franklin once said, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither Liberty nor safety." (November 11, 1755.) You can't have it both ways. We either have liberty or we have government 'guaranteed' safety (which is, as we all know, simply not possible). If the Federal government were really interested in any national security, our borders would have been locked down tight instead of spending time removing GI Joe toy guns from plastic dolls in airports and an entire of other high-visibility, accomplish-nothing measures instituted simply to make it look like something was being done and make the masses feel better. Makes people feel better is not increasing their safety. Maybe, instead, the powers-that-be could better spend their time explaining to people how their personal safety and the safety of their loved ones ultimately rests with themselves and not some bureaucrat. I've even go so far as to tell you how big a joke all this federalized airport security is in case you didn't know: while the now federal employees are busy confiscating plastic toy guns, key-chains shaped like pistols, nail clippers and finger-nail files, a passenger took a gun through security in Atlanta and my very own son (who arrived to catch a plane too late to check his largest bag) was handed that same bag back AFTER security found his pocket knife inside it. They handed the bag to him and TOLD him that he couldn't have a pocket knife on the plane so would he make sure that he had someone place that bag in the cargo area when he got down to the jetway!!! Here's the REAL clincher - my son is 6' 5", 19 years old and has long dark hair and VERY dark brown eyes. I would say that he fits the profile of a terrorists hijacker pretty closely and, yet, he was sent on his merry way with airport 'security screeners' KNOWING that he had a knife within his reach!! Were they afraid that if they confiscated it they'd get sued for 'profiling' because of his appearance? Who knows. It's just another example of how much intrusion and 'show your papers, please' the masses are willing to tolerate all in the name of some perceived safety. Very few are being vigilant anymore. They're too busy screaming for the 'state' to keep them safe.
No law has been past removing a single right any American has. No law has been passed that unlawfully detains any American.
Not hardly. As discussed above, we have lost the right to be secure in our persons and in our papers and up until just a few years ago we all understood that road-blocks by the police just to check for papers was blatantly unconstitutional. My, what short memories we all have nowadays. Unless we are plainly suspected of doing a certain illegal thing, the police have no constitutional authority to detain us and make us show our 'papers'. That in and of itself is enough to upset any person who is concerned over the current set of pre-Hitler-like behavior being carried our in the name of safety while our law enforcement is afraid to pull over anyone who looks middle-eastern for fear of being branded un-PC. Guess it's just easier to pick on real American citizens to, at least, LOOK like they're doing something constructive. After all, most folks will never that the time to question their tactics and they know it.
TIPS isn’t a law and even if it were it wouldn’t remove a single right spelled out by our forefathers. Detaining Americans as Material witnesses is a legal practice and has been for decades.
TIPS didn't get off the ground because a great many people found out what was going on in plenty of time to let their Congressmen and women know exactly what they thought about it. It will be back under a different name when the people are looking the other way unless I miss my guess. What TIPS seeks to do is train (on our dime, of course) and then empower basically everyone who may enter your home on, what you consider, legitimate business to snoop to their hearts content. Can you imagine the potential for some of these folks to get mad at a home-owner who is, say, rude to them and get even by 'turning them in' for some reason? Don't just think in the here and now, take things to the next (il)logical conclusion and see what potential for abuse something has the next time we have a Bill or Hillary Clinton in the White House.
Our Nation is under a very cogent threat of Biological as well as nuclear attack. This is not 1776 where we’ll be able to rally the minutemen to protect the Nation from a developing invasion. ...Prevention is the only way to orient ourselves towards and overcome these threats.
This makes as much sense as saying let's go out and shoot a certain kind of child because they will more than likely grow up to be hoodlums. Prevention should have started with more closely guarded borders and stern immigration and visa policies. Until I see these things being done, you'll have to pardon me for believing that everything that IS being done is mere smoke and mirrors to appease the masses. Pre-emptive strikes are something that the US people wouldn't have tolerated even 20 years ago. Dare I say it? -- It is simply not the American way.
Adolescent, knee-jerk outbursts at the hint of responsible Government action is not. The Government is tasked to promote the welfare and maintain the peace in our nation.
When I see some responsible government action, I'll be sure to admit it. So far, I've seen very little that will REALLY do anything to stop the first school from being blown to bits or the first mall and most of this is thanks to the amnesties and, still, illegals in this Country that our government (remember, the very same one that is SUPPOSED to be defending us??) has only encouraged during the last 10 - 15 years instead of halting in its tracks. Friends of ours who are border patrol are simply appalled that they are still not allowed to do their jobs even after 9/11. A thinking person has to stop and ask themselves why that is...
…and completely contrary to any decision that our founding Fathers would make. Does any one here want to assert that Thomas Jefferson would sacrifice millions of American lives [remember that there were only three million when he was around] because our government wasn’t doing exactly what he wanted it to do, how he wanted it done right here, right now?
I must have missed that remark. I honestly don't recall anyone advocating having Americans die to have his/her ideas upheld.
I think that if our Founders were alive today they would be more appalled at our interventionist policies and the lack of any REAL national security measures that they would see than anything else. Well, I take that back - I think they'd be pretty darned disappointed in all the people who are clueless (no personal slight intended) about what they stood for during their lives and what they and countless others here have fought and died for during our brief history. Thomas Jefferson (among others) tried to warn us - "Friendly relations with all nations, entangling alliances with none.". Too bad we forgot to hold the feet of our elected leaders to the fire to make certain that they didn't forget.
One single Nuclear detonation in Washington DC with our government in place would easily lead to worldwide economic collapse, invasion of Democratic South Korea, Israel, Taiwan and possibly even the United States itself by foreign powers as well as the immediate suspension of civil law and the ordinance of Military rule. You wanna see your rights chewed up…wait for that to happen…
Do you honestly believe this?? Even using tanks, etc., there are extremely few countries that would even attempt to 'take over' these united states for the exact same reason that Japan wouldn't try it prior to and during WWII. The part about some economic collapse might be right. After all, the US taxpayer is pretty well propping up the rest of the world and those folks would be left to figure things out for themselves without our government robbing from us to give to them. Bears thinking about.
None of that is far-fetched or unreasonable to predict. It is the logical process were terrorists to detonate a Nuclear bomb in our Nation’s capitol.
Thankfully, once again, our Founding Fathers had the wisdom and foresight to plan for just such and eventuality. It's called the chain of command. We might be shaken but I seriously doubt that we would crumble.
You may not like the fact that we now have these sort of responsibilities for other Nations but your personal like, dislike agreement or disagreement as to its constitutionality has no affect on the fact that the responsibilities are indeed there. Ignoring them or brushing them aside as unconstitutional is remarkably capricious.
Accepting the status quo because it's more convenient is what is capricious and whether I like it or not has absolutely nothing to do this. The nations of the world are NOT, repeat, NOT our responsibility and they have only become so since WWII through the bureaucratic processes that we've allowed to take place in Washington. It's not just me that thinks so either. There used to be tons of folks who posted here regularly that thought the same thing - now - they no longer post here or post here rarely due to drivel such as this comment about our having responsibilities for other nations. I know, I got FReepmail from quite a few of them last night and this morning welcoming me back to posting here.
At what point do you sober up and admit that the 1700’s are gone and they are never, ever coming back? At what point do you sober up and admit that this Government of ours or the relationships we now have with the rest of the World will never be dismantled from within to the size of our original government or the responsibilities shrunk to pre-1800 levels?
Yes, the 1700 and 1800s are gone and water under the bridge. Something comes to mind here that I heard many years ago, however; right and wrong and morals do not change, only people's perception of them. Mankind does not change and neither do governments. Our Founders knew this and hoped they had laid enough groundwork for us to maintain and carry on their vision. Guess that's why Patrick Henry thought the tree of liberty must be periodically watered with the blood of patriots. Real men, all, who weren't afraid to put their own lives on the line for what they knew was right. Now, instead, we have keyboard party supporters who wouldn't know a tyrant if they voted for one.
I am the first person to fight for our freedom of speech, our right to bare arms, free press, freedom of religion etc etc. and I am also the first one to admit that in order to defend all 280,000,000+ of us [Where we are today, not where you want us to be] from the threats we face, we are going to have to evaluate what priorities we have…
What would the Founders have thought about your statement? I think we can turn to Patrick Henry for the answer to this one: "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
Our Constitution is indeed the foundation that this Nation stands on but to honestly believe in the possibility of a return to the original state of national and international affairs that our Nation enjoyed when it was written and established is willfully infantile and ignorant.
Alas!! Now we finally get down to the truth! Thank goodness! You seem to be of the belief that the US. Constitution and its founding ideals are outmoded and outdated and not suited for discourse in the modern world! I can think of NO situations that are essential to either our safety as a Nation or our personal liberties that are not addressed and planned for in that noble document. To read it in the light in which it was written is to understand just how deeply the Founder's understanding of basic human nature went. People still have the same failings and the same admirable traits that they possessed then only, it would seem, with a greater profusion of the later.
If you do not agree then I find difficulty in you identifying yourself as either Conservative or American.
Frankly, I couldn't conceivably care less what you find difficulty with, sir. I am an American. Period. And proud of it. You see, I think that the United States IS the best Country on earth and don't mind taking the time to explain all they whys most days. Everyone from my father on up the family tree have served their Country with pride during all of the wars I could name. The fact that during the 20th Century they were sent places that our military had no business partaking in to begin with doesn't change the fact that they went, some of them died, and they did it due to a love of land and of family. Patriotism is a love of one's homeland. Nothing more and nothing less and does not necessarily include a love of one's government. I am very proud of my ancestors and the ancestors of my fellow AMERICANS who have fought and died for what they believed. Nothing will ever change that and your being asinine enough to question my personal beliefs or how I identify myself borders on insanity.
Step to the side and argue your purpose amongst yourselves but for now, Real Men are required to stand up and act [not talk] in order to defend our Nation. Right here, right now those actions will make our Nation safe…your rationale will not.
That are a lot of us who wish that we actually had REAL MEN running the show instead of a bunch of politically correct bureaucrats who are afraid to make anybody mad or hurt their feelings unless somebody wants their oil-fields. Do you know ANYTHING about the proposed oil pipe-line that crosses Afghanistan but could not be built due to an "unfriendly regime" being in charge? Maybe you should do some real digging on what is wrapped up in this 'war with Iraq' before you continue spouting off that we should dictate terms to their government or assassinate their rulers. I know that you won't listen to anything I've said but I also know that there are lots of people who lurk more than they post that will take my advise and do their own research instead of simply believing the propaganda machine that tells us what they want us to hear.
Stay well, Stay safe, have a good Labor Day - it IS the citizens holiday, after all.
“Something else regarding the Patriot Act that you may or may not be aware of - it was drafted and written months before 9/11.”
What a goofball. Yes….The evil Federal Government was laying in wait for their opportunity to spring a tyrannical plan on the millions of ignorant, fat, lazy uneducated, indifferent Americans. Show me where anyone involved in writing the Patriot Act [Not anything else] has stated that the Patriot Act was written prior to 9/11.
“I point out yet again that it would appear that most of those in DC right now believe our Constitution is printed on rubber instead of paper just like they did when Clinton was in the White House.”
I did not ask you about what appears to you about others beliefs.
“The two can not be separated like that.”
The two are separate.
“As Ben Franklin once said, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither Liberty nor safety." (November 11, 1755.)”
Can you give me the response Ben Franklin had when asked how he would deal with a Nuclear threat?
No you cannot. I respect and esteem his words…I don’t apply them blindly in order to justify my own incompetence in the face of the threat our Nation faces.
“You can't have it both ways. We either have liberty or we have government 'guaranteed' safety”
Yet another infantile statement. At what point was your cerebral development arrested? We already have Government guaranteed security and personal freedom in this nation. You attempt to ratchet the process up to a ridiculous example. Nobody is calling for total lockdown…nor could it be accomplished. But in order to deal with the threats we now face…the steps taken are reasonable….and have a time limit.
“If the Federal government were really interested”
Again, grow up. The Federal Government is a conglomeration of divisions and departments the like of which have never been assembled ever…you can argue their merit but it is not a singular being with a singular train of thought or intent.
“I've even go so far as to tell you how big a joke all this federalized airport security is”
Nobody asked you about that nor is it remotely part of my original post….again, stop meandering. People want reality…not the opinion of critics.
“we have lost the right to be secure in our persons and in our papers and up until just a few years ago we all understood that road-blocks by the police just to check for papers was blatantly unconstitutional.”
Again…meandering. I said No American has been unlawfully detained.
“What TIPS seeks to do is train…”
Yes…I am glad you agree that TIPS was not a law.
“This makes as much sense as saying let's go out and shoot a certain kind of child because they will more than likely grow up to be hoodlums.”
Only your mind could get that from: Our Nation is under a very cogent threat of Biological as well as nuclear attack. This is not 1776 where we’ll be able to rally the minutemen to protect the Nation from a developing invasion. ...Prevention is the only way to orient ourselves towards and overcome these threats.
“I must have missed that remark. I honestly don't recall anyone advocating having Americans die to have his/her ideas upheld.”
Yes, you missed it.
“I think that if our Founders were alive today they would be more appalled at”
I did not ask you what you thought someone else would think.
“Do you honestly believe this??”
Did you read a disclaimer anywhere in the post? Stop wasting bandwidth asking questions you could easily answer if you applied yourself.
“Thankfully, once again, our Founding Fathers had the wisdom and foresight to plan for just such and eventuality. It's called the chain of command.”
“Chain of command” is a military term to be found nowhere in documents written by the founding fathers. I challenge you to provide us with one. Do not skim over this response…I will hold you to it infinitum.
“We might be shaken but I seriously doubt that we would crumble.”
Is that the fallback gamble? We would be shaken but we wouldn’t crumble in the face of the Nation’s Capitol taking a nuclear detonation?
“I got FReepmail from quite a few of them last night and this morning welcoming me back to posting here.”
Quite a few? 3? I challenge all of them to make their case or support open. ~grin~
“Yes, the 1700 and 1800s are gone and water under the bridge. Something comes to mind…”
Yadayadayada thank you for the acknowledgment.
“What would the Founders have thought about your statement?”
They’re dead…you’ll never know. Nor will anyone else. Stop wasting energy divining what Patrick Henry would’ve retorted to me with. You respond.
“Alas!! Now we finally get down to the truth! You seem to be of the belief that the US. Constitution and its founding ideals are outmoded and outdated…”
Oi…again with the schizophrenic rhetoric. I said: “to honestly believe in the possibility of a return to the original state of national and international affairs that our Nation enjoyed when it was written and established is willfully infantile and ignorant”….furthermore its completely impossible.
“I know that you won't listen to anything I've said but I also know that there are lots of people who lurk more than they post that will take my…”
Fantasyland…let these heretofore unseen posters support you now.