Not one single American has lost a right that they didn’t already have before this Administration took office.
That is the bottomline. Not Padilla, Not Taliban Johnny not the “I spent the first six months of my life in America” Saudi in Norfolk. Everything done with all of them is according to present law, constitutionally sound.
Until you have a single ruling made by the Supreme Court that anything currently taking place is unconstitutional then by definition the above statement is fact. It may well be that they do make a ruling in the future that something being done was unconstitutional but until that time you have no basis to assert that the Bush Administration is knowingly and intentionally violating anyone's constitutional rights.
Plain and simple.
There has been a tremendous amount of Federal Government creep in our country that has occurred ever since the civil war. It is something to vigilantly monitor and address but it is separate from the current discussion of preventing further terrorist attacks against our nation and removing Saddam Hussein from power. The spirit of the two and the motivating factors involved are wholly separate.
No law has been past removing a single right any American has. No law has been passed that unlawfully detains any American. The closest anyone can come to implying that possibly one has been detained is by linguistically asserting that nobody knows for certainty that there isn’t detained at GITMO an individual born in our country.
That is a completely laughable basis for asserting that a broad brush of anti-rights legislation [The only thing that takes away our rights] has taken hold of our Nation since September 11th . and to be discarded as nonsensical approach to discussing the subject.
TIPS isn’t a law and even if it were it wouldn’t remove a single right spelled out by our forefathers. Detaining Americans as Material witnesses is a legal practice and has been for decades.
Our Nation is under a very cogent threat of Biological as well as nuclear attack. This is not 1776 where we’ll be able to rally the minutemen to protect the Nation from a developing invasion. If it is Biological or Nuclear [The ultimate threats] it is fulfilled the minute the attack is launched and cannot be effectively thwarted or contained by our Government. Prevention is the only way to orient ourselves towards and overcome these threats.
Representing the Constitution and fighting to maintain its integrity is a necessary requirement in our Nation. Adolescent, knee-jerk outbursts at the hint of responsible Government action is not. The Government is tasked to promote the welfare and maintain the peace in our nation. The threat we face requires preemption. You don’t have to like that this threat doesn’t fit into your little 18th 19th or even 20th Century box but it is what it is.
One person here actually implied that there would be an acceptable honor is losing his life and the lives of hundreds of thousand, possibly millions of his fellow Americans to a Nuclear attack by terrorists if his actions in promoting his interpretation of the constitution enabled it to occur.
Simply amazing…
…and completely contrary to any decision that our founding Fathers would make. Does any one here want to assert that Thomas Jefferson would sacrifice millions of American lives [remember that there were only three million when he was around] because our government wasn’t doing exactly what he wanted it to do, how he wanted it done right here, right now?
Grow up.
The threats posed to us now develop in nanoseconds and are complete in their design in minutes. Methods simply have to be in place that can begin to grasp and prevent these threats from manifesting.
One single Nuclear detonation in Washington DC with our government in place would easily lead to worldwide economic collapse, invasion of Democratic South Korea, Israel, Taiwan and possibly even the United States itself by foreign powers as well as the immediate suspension of civil law and the ordinance of Military rule. You wanna see your rights chewed up…wait for that to happen…
None of that is far-fetched or unreasonable to predict. It is the logical process were terrorists to detonate a Nuclear bomb in our Nation’s capitol.
You may not like the fact that we now have these sort of responsibilities for other Nations but your personal like, dislike agreement or disagreement as to its constitutionality has no affect on the fact that the responsibilities are indeed there. Ignoring them or brushing them aside as unconstitutional is remarkably capricious.
At what point do you sober up and admit that the 1700’s are gone and they are never, ever coming back? At what point do you sober up and admit that this Government of ours or the relationships we now have with the rest of the World will never be dismantled from within to the size of our original government or the responsibilities shrunk to pre-1800 levels?
I am the first person to fight for our freedom of speech, our right to bare arms, free press, freedom of religion etc etc. and I am also the first one to admit that in order to defend all 280,000,000+ of us [Where we are today, not where you want us to be] from the threats we face, we are going to have to evaluate what priorities we have…
IMHO [And I suspect the Executive Branch of Governments opinion]the current priority is to defend this Nation from the threat of Nuclear Terrorism. It is not a manufactured threat, it is a very salient one and all else is subordinate to that defense, including your opinions, feelings and if needs be your unhindered rights.
Our Constitution is indeed the foundation that this Nation stands on but to honestly believe in the possibility of a return to the original state of national and international affairs that our Nation enjoyed when it was written and established is willfully infantile and ignorant. The argument for a return to our original Constitutional Government is by itself extremely unlikely but to argue for the desire now in light of the situation we are currently in is simply bitter and contrarian as well as not constructive.
If you do not agree then I find difficulty in you identifying yourself as either Conservative or American.
Step to the side and argue your purpose amongst yourselves but for now, Real Men are required to stand up and act [not talk] in order to defend our Nation. Right here, right now those actions will make our Nation safe…your rationale will not.
Is it safe to start laughing, yet ??
For the first time in recorded history - you actually said something of value .. .. .. "Defend OUR Nation".
To Defend this Nation is the act of repelling an enemy force in the act of Attacking US - not just being guilty of spewing Rhetoric in our faces. Not listening to claims of what weapons that are believed to be in stock.
Huh? Parse error.
Until you have a single ruling made by the Supreme Court that anything currently taking place is unconstitutional then by definition the above statement is fact.
The people are equally qualified to judge something as unconstitutional. The people are even empowered to set aside laws from the jury box.
No law has been past removing a single right any American has.
There are approximately 900 held now without being allowed a lawyer, without being allowed to review the charges against them, and there are no dates set for their trial. The trials can be conducted in secret, without the accused's presence. This is included in the "Patriot's Act". It passed.
TIPS isn’t a law and even if it were it wouldn’t remove a single right spelled out by our forefathers.
Same thing was said when the Hitler Youth was formed.
Our Nation is under a very cogent threat of Biological as well as nuclear attack. This is not 1776 where we’ll be able to rally the minutemen to protect the Nation from a developing invasion.
Our Nation was under a much more real threat of nuclear attack during the "Cold War". During the Cuban Missle Crisis there was nearly a first strike launch. The extreme measures now being employed were not needed then, are not needed now. The "minutemen" could indeed protect this Nation even now. There is an abundance of American citizens who can watch over our lakes, power plants, and bridges. I can't think of a more formidable foe than the American public. The government places us under suspicion rather than "on the wall". (Besides, the TIPS program is a degenerate form of militia.)
The threat we face requires preemption.
Better security would result from prohibiting immigration from hostile lands, deporting hostiles, sealing the porous Mexican border, and arming air crews. Searching Middle-Eastern athletic males would provide better security than strip searching retired US Army Generals and confiscating his Medal of Honor.
Does any one here want to assert that Thomas Jefferson would sacrifice millions of American lives?
He wouldn't. But he wouldn't "protect us" by allowing proven enemies to continue to train in our flight schools, strip search 88 year-old grandmothers, and prohibit loyal Americans from bearing arms in order to protect themselves.
The threats posed to us now develop in nanoseconds..
You haven't been doing your homework. The Al-Quada threat has been building up over some years. The attackers trained in this country for years. The government that you so highly respect failed to see this coming despite very clear signs and even direct warnings from other counties. Political correctness blinded the entire intelligence community. Don't worry. They all got promotions.
At what point do you sober up and admit that the 1700’s are gone and they are never, ever coming back?
Moral and political principles are ageless. The problems we face in society today are no different than those faced in Socrate's time, let alone the 1700s. The technologies of war have changed, but the meanings of honor, dignity, morality, and freedom are absolutes that don't change.
Our Constitution is indeed the foundation that this Nation stands on but to honestly believe in the possibility of a return to the original state of national and international affairs that our Nation enjoyed when it was written and established is willfully infantile and ignorant. If you do not agree then I find difficulty in you identifying yourself as either Conservative or American.
It is extremely obvious that you are not well versed with the Founding Documents. If you had read them, you couldn't possibly make these statements. Their writings deal mostly with duty, honor, bravery, responsibility, honesty, and selflessness. Do you actually presume these to be obsolete?
Grow up.
I'm 52 years old. I've raised five successful children. I served as an officer in the US Army. You are the one who should grow up and stand firm, and defend your Nation. Not the "next" Nation, this Nation. I took an oath to defend the Constitution and this Nation against all enemies, foriegn and domestic. I meant it then, I never recanted.
Get an education, especially with respect to your Heritage. In the final analysis, it is all you have.
BRAVO!!!
Fair enough.
Not one single American has lost a right that they didn’t already have before this Administration took office.
Well, maybe except the rights to be secure in our papers and persons. The Patriot Act took care of that with providing a mechanism for the FBI to enter our HOMES, remove and/or copy whatever they see fit and then not even tell us about it, again, unless they see fit. Private property rights are one of the fundamental rights that all others stem from. If we do not posses a right to be secure in our persons and personal papers, then the government pretty well has carte blanche to do with us as it wills. Something else regarding the Patriot Act that you may or may not be aware of - it was drafted and written months before 9/11. I suppose they just had it lying around just in case something happened? This would have been passed under Krintoon if they thought they could have gotten away with it without the folks in 'fly-over country' stretching their precious necks.
Until you have a single ruling made by the Supreme Court that anything currently taking place is unconstitutional then by definition the above statement is fact. It may well be that they do make a ruling in the future that something being done was unconstitutional but until that time you have no basis to assert that the Bush Administration is knowingly and intentionally violating anyone's constitutional rights.
I point out yet again that it would appear that most of those in DC right now believe our Constitution is printed on rubber instead of paper just like they did when Clinton was in the White House. Nothing has changed there. We still have judges effectively legislating from the bench and no one seems to care. Laws passed by Congress are subject to a 'constitution check' by the Supreme Court who is charged with deciding whether their laws are constitutional or not. Sadly, these black-robed justices, for the most part, have forgotten what it is they are charged with doing. It strikes me as funny that when lawyers working for the government say a certain thing is so, that many people just blindly accept it, yet, when lawyers in everyday life ascertain something, it is immediately questioned because most folks thing they're all ambulance-chasing crooks. Double standards, anyone?
There has been a tremendous amount of Federal Government creep in our country that has occurred ever since the civil war.
Does this somehow make it right? No, of course not. It's just that a great many people have grown so accustomed to only knowing how it's been done during their own lifetimes that they can't see how far we've regressed during just the last 40 years! The federal government is growing exponentially and nobody ever seems to really care unless it's someone in the 'other' party doing the encroaching. Some of us don't care which (or any) party is subverting the ideals that this Country was founded on. We only seek to point out that it IS being done and that it is not right.
It is something to vigilantly monitor and address but it is separate from the current discussion of preventing further terrorist attacks against our nation and removing Saddam Hussein from power. The spirit of the two and the motivating factors involved are wholly separate.
The two can not be separated like that. As Ben Franklin once said, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither Liberty nor safety." (November 11, 1755.) You can't have it both ways. We either have liberty or we have government 'guaranteed' safety (which is, as we all know, simply not possible). If the Federal government were really interested in any national security, our borders would have been locked down tight instead of spending time removing GI Joe toy guns from plastic dolls in airports and an entire of other high-visibility, accomplish-nothing measures instituted simply to make it look like something was being done and make the masses feel better. Makes people feel better is not increasing their safety. Maybe, instead, the powers-that-be could better spend their time explaining to people how their personal safety and the safety of their loved ones ultimately rests with themselves and not some bureaucrat. I've even go so far as to tell you how big a joke all this federalized airport security is in case you didn't know: while the now federal employees are busy confiscating plastic toy guns, key-chains shaped like pistols, nail clippers and finger-nail files, a passenger took a gun through security in Atlanta and my very own son (who arrived to catch a plane too late to check his largest bag) was handed that same bag back AFTER security found his pocket knife inside it. They handed the bag to him and TOLD him that he couldn't have a pocket knife on the plane so would he make sure that he had someone place that bag in the cargo area when he got down to the jetway!!! Here's the REAL clincher - my son is 6' 5", 19 years old and has long dark hair and VERY dark brown eyes. I would say that he fits the profile of a terrorists hijacker pretty closely and, yet, he was sent on his merry way with airport 'security screeners' KNOWING that he had a knife within his reach!! Were they afraid that if they confiscated it they'd get sued for 'profiling' because of his appearance? Who knows. It's just another example of how much intrusion and 'show your papers, please' the masses are willing to tolerate all in the name of some perceived safety. Very few are being vigilant anymore. They're too busy screaming for the 'state' to keep them safe.
No law has been past removing a single right any American has. No law has been passed that unlawfully detains any American.
Not hardly. As discussed above, we have lost the right to be secure in our persons and in our papers and up until just a few years ago we all understood that road-blocks by the police just to check for papers was blatantly unconstitutional. My, what short memories we all have nowadays. Unless we are plainly suspected of doing a certain illegal thing, the police have no constitutional authority to detain us and make us show our 'papers'. That in and of itself is enough to upset any person who is concerned over the current set of pre-Hitler-like behavior being carried our in the name of safety while our law enforcement is afraid to pull over anyone who looks middle-eastern for fear of being branded un-PC. Guess it's just easier to pick on real American citizens to, at least, LOOK like they're doing something constructive. After all, most folks will never that the time to question their tactics and they know it.
TIPS isn’t a law and even if it were it wouldn’t remove a single right spelled out by our forefathers. Detaining Americans as Material witnesses is a legal practice and has been for decades.
TIPS didn't get off the ground because a great many people found out what was going on in plenty of time to let their Congressmen and women know exactly what they thought about it. It will be back under a different name when the people are looking the other way unless I miss my guess. What TIPS seeks to do is train (on our dime, of course) and then empower basically everyone who may enter your home on, what you consider, legitimate business to snoop to their hearts content. Can you imagine the potential for some of these folks to get mad at a home-owner who is, say, rude to them and get even by 'turning them in' for some reason? Don't just think in the here and now, take things to the next (il)logical conclusion and see what potential for abuse something has the next time we have a Bill or Hillary Clinton in the White House.
Our Nation is under a very cogent threat of Biological as well as nuclear attack. This is not 1776 where we’ll be able to rally the minutemen to protect the Nation from a developing invasion. ...Prevention is the only way to orient ourselves towards and overcome these threats.
This makes as much sense as saying let's go out and shoot a certain kind of child because they will more than likely grow up to be hoodlums. Prevention should have started with more closely guarded borders and stern immigration and visa policies. Until I see these things being done, you'll have to pardon me for believing that everything that IS being done is mere smoke and mirrors to appease the masses. Pre-emptive strikes are something that the US people wouldn't have tolerated even 20 years ago. Dare I say it? -- It is simply not the American way.
Adolescent, knee-jerk outbursts at the hint of responsible Government action is not. The Government is tasked to promote the welfare and maintain the peace in our nation.
When I see some responsible government action, I'll be sure to admit it. So far, I've seen very little that will REALLY do anything to stop the first school from being blown to bits or the first mall and most of this is thanks to the amnesties and, still, illegals in this Country that our government (remember, the very same one that is SUPPOSED to be defending us??) has only encouraged during the last 10 - 15 years instead of halting in its tracks. Friends of ours who are border patrol are simply appalled that they are still not allowed to do their jobs even after 9/11. A thinking person has to stop and ask themselves why that is...
…and completely contrary to any decision that our founding Fathers would make. Does any one here want to assert that Thomas Jefferson would sacrifice millions of American lives [remember that there were only three million when he was around] because our government wasn’t doing exactly what he wanted it to do, how he wanted it done right here, right now?
I must have missed that remark. I honestly don't recall anyone advocating having Americans die to have his/her ideas upheld.
I think that if our Founders were alive today they would be more appalled at our interventionist policies and the lack of any REAL national security measures that they would see than anything else. Well, I take that back - I think they'd be pretty darned disappointed in all the people who are clueless (no personal slight intended) about what they stood for during their lives and what they and countless others here have fought and died for during our brief history. Thomas Jefferson (among others) tried to warn us - "Friendly relations with all nations, entangling alliances with none.". Too bad we forgot to hold the feet of our elected leaders to the fire to make certain that they didn't forget.
One single Nuclear detonation in Washington DC with our government in place would easily lead to worldwide economic collapse, invasion of Democratic South Korea, Israel, Taiwan and possibly even the United States itself by foreign powers as well as the immediate suspension of civil law and the ordinance of Military rule. You wanna see your rights chewed up…wait for that to happen…
Do you honestly believe this?? Even using tanks, etc., there are extremely few countries that would even attempt to 'take over' these united states for the exact same reason that Japan wouldn't try it prior to and during WWII. The part about some economic collapse might be right. After all, the US taxpayer is pretty well propping up the rest of the world and those folks would be left to figure things out for themselves without our government robbing from us to give to them. Bears thinking about.
None of that is far-fetched or unreasonable to predict. It is the logical process were terrorists to detonate a Nuclear bomb in our Nation’s capitol.
Thankfully, once again, our Founding Fathers had the wisdom and foresight to plan for just such and eventuality. It's called the chain of command. We might be shaken but I seriously doubt that we would crumble.
You may not like the fact that we now have these sort of responsibilities for other Nations but your personal like, dislike agreement or disagreement as to its constitutionality has no affect on the fact that the responsibilities are indeed there. Ignoring them or brushing them aside as unconstitutional is remarkably capricious.
Accepting the status quo because it's more convenient is what is capricious and whether I like it or not has absolutely nothing to do this. The nations of the world are NOT, repeat, NOT our responsibility and they have only become so since WWII through the bureaucratic processes that we've allowed to take place in Washington. It's not just me that thinks so either. There used to be tons of folks who posted here regularly that thought the same thing - now - they no longer post here or post here rarely due to drivel such as this comment about our having responsibilities for other nations. I know, I got FReepmail from quite a few of them last night and this morning welcoming me back to posting here.
At what point do you sober up and admit that the 1700’s are gone and they are never, ever coming back? At what point do you sober up and admit that this Government of ours or the relationships we now have with the rest of the World will never be dismantled from within to the size of our original government or the responsibilities shrunk to pre-1800 levels?
Yes, the 1700 and 1800s are gone and water under the bridge. Something comes to mind here that I heard many years ago, however; right and wrong and morals do not change, only people's perception of them. Mankind does not change and neither do governments. Our Founders knew this and hoped they had laid enough groundwork for us to maintain and carry on their vision. Guess that's why Patrick Henry thought the tree of liberty must be periodically watered with the blood of patriots. Real men, all, who weren't afraid to put their own lives on the line for what they knew was right. Now, instead, we have keyboard party supporters who wouldn't know a tyrant if they voted for one.
I am the first person to fight for our freedom of speech, our right to bare arms, free press, freedom of religion etc etc. and I am also the first one to admit that in order to defend all 280,000,000+ of us [Where we are today, not where you want us to be] from the threats we face, we are going to have to evaluate what priorities we have…
What would the Founders have thought about your statement? I think we can turn to Patrick Henry for the answer to this one: "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
Our Constitution is indeed the foundation that this Nation stands on but to honestly believe in the possibility of a return to the original state of national and international affairs that our Nation enjoyed when it was written and established is willfully infantile and ignorant.
Alas!! Now we finally get down to the truth! Thank goodness! You seem to be of the belief that the US. Constitution and its founding ideals are outmoded and outdated and not suited for discourse in the modern world! I can think of NO situations that are essential to either our safety as a Nation or our personal liberties that are not addressed and planned for in that noble document. To read it in the light in which it was written is to understand just how deeply the Founder's understanding of basic human nature went. People still have the same failings and the same admirable traits that they possessed then only, it would seem, with a greater profusion of the later.
If you do not agree then I find difficulty in you identifying yourself as either Conservative or American.
Frankly, I couldn't conceivably care less what you find difficulty with, sir. I am an American. Period. And proud of it. You see, I think that the United States IS the best Country on earth and don't mind taking the time to explain all they whys most days. Everyone from my father on up the family tree have served their Country with pride during all of the wars I could name. The fact that during the 20th Century they were sent places that our military had no business partaking in to begin with doesn't change the fact that they went, some of them died, and they did it due to a love of land and of family. Patriotism is a love of one's homeland. Nothing more and nothing less and does not necessarily include a love of one's government. I am very proud of my ancestors and the ancestors of my fellow AMERICANS who have fought and died for what they believed. Nothing will ever change that and your being asinine enough to question my personal beliefs or how I identify myself borders on insanity.
Step to the side and argue your purpose amongst yourselves but for now, Real Men are required to stand up and act [not talk] in order to defend our Nation. Right here, right now those actions will make our Nation safe…your rationale will not.
That are a lot of us who wish that we actually had REAL MEN running the show instead of a bunch of politically correct bureaucrats who are afraid to make anybody mad or hurt their feelings unless somebody wants their oil-fields. Do you know ANYTHING about the proposed oil pipe-line that crosses Afghanistan but could not be built due to an "unfriendly regime" being in charge? Maybe you should do some real digging on what is wrapped up in this 'war with Iraq' before you continue spouting off that we should dictate terms to their government or assassinate their rulers. I know that you won't listen to anything I've said but I also know that there are lots of people who lurk more than they post that will take my advise and do their own research instead of simply believing the propaganda machine that tells us what they want us to hear.
Stay well, Stay safe, have a good Labor Day - it IS the citizens holiday, after all.
Nice freudian slip, Bub. That's PRECISELY what we've lost - rights that we already had before this administration took office. You obviously don't know much about the so-called "Patriot Act," which was passed without even being read by the congressslime in DC and signed by Junior.
How about you? In which branch of the military did you serve? Or, do you defend your Nation by proxy?
Remind me to put you on my brain-dead ping list.
"all else is subordinate to that defense, including your opinions, feelings and if needs be your unhindered rights.
You then rub salt in the constitutions wounds by claiming:
"If you do not agree then I find difficulty in you identifying yourself as either Conservative or American."
You are advocating 'subordinating' rights in order to save them.
- This is not rational american conservatism on your part. - Be ashamed of your own "adolescent, knee-jerk outburst". ________________________________
Curry, your own jingoistic type bull gets the same evaluation. Stuff it.