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To: BroJoeK
This is what I mean. Instead of addressing the economics I have pointed out to you, you go right back to the slavery slavery slavery slavery slavery slavery slavery slavery thing.

As I've said repeatedly, the right to form a free and independent nation is NOT DEPENDENT on whether you agree with their morals or not. It is also entirely beside the point of the fact that the Union was not insisting they give up slavery, it was insisting they give up independence.

In other words, the assertion that the Union fought to end slavery is a lie, and you are doing everything you can to continue promulgating that lie, because the TRUTH makes your cause immoral and vile.

You KEEP the focus on slavery, because that is the only ad hoc moral position your side can claim in the entire horrible disaster.

399 posted on 01/29/2016 5:33:06 PM PST by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: DiogenesLamp; rockrr; jmacusa
DiogenesLamp: "As I've said repeatedly, the right to form a free and independent nation is NOT DEPENDENT on whether you agree with their morals or not."

But such an alleged unlimited "right" does not exist, never did, not in 1776, not in 1787 nor in 1860.
So regardless of how often, or how loudly, you proclaim it, such an unlimited right was never, in fact, proclaimed by our Founders.

Except, except under two conditions:

  1. Mutual consent, meaning all parties agree to it.
  2. What amounts to a material breach of contract, i.e., "usurpations" or "oppression" having the same effect.

In 1776, our Founders certainly had no "mutual consent", but they just as certainly did have many serious breaches of contract by the Brits, including a formal declaration of war against colonists, and actual waging of war by the Brits.
These breaches are listed in detail in the Declaration of Independence.

By stark contrast, Fire-Eater secessionists in 1860 had neither "mutual consent", nor any serious breach of contract they could point to.
Instead, they seceded, as you so often proclaim their right, "at pleasure", meaning without any particular legal justification.

And while "at pleasure" may be plenty enough reason for DiogenesLamp, it was never considered legal justification by our Founders.

Still, regardless of the legalities -- or illegalities -- of 1861 declarations of secession, none of them caused Civil War.
Instead, Civil War was provoked, started and declared by the Confederacy against the United States long before even one Confederate soldier was killed directly in battle with any Union force, and before any Union army invaded a single Confederate state.

So tell us why you can't grasp such simple facts.

405 posted on 01/30/2016 4:04:34 AM PST by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective...)
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