Posted on 05/22/2006 8:14:10 AM PDT by RightWingAtheist
Is this an example of not attacking me?
Why are you trying so hard to justify sociopaths? Are you one?
Your method of asking me to explain myself, isn't to say "did you mean this..." but rather "You said 'twisted all out of recognition'".
"Are orthodox jews saved?"
I can't speak with absolute 100% authority on the Jews. But I have very little hope for them. To have rejected the second covenant, in a sense is to have broken the first. It was for that reason that they were exiled from Israel for almost 2000 years. Jesus said, "No man comes to the Father but by me". Jesus told Nicodemus who not only was a Jew but a member of the Sanhedrin that he "must be born again." Jesus said that those that did not believe in Him, were condemned already.
It might be possible that God will apply Jesus' sacrifice to the Jew, since the Jew was trusting God and asking for forgiveness. But given Jesus' comments it's hard to see how that could be. And in a sense, the Jew didn't trust God, because if he studied the prophecies, he should have been able to recognize Jesus.
"Is the bible the unimpeachable source of moral instruction?"
Yes, but unimpeachable, doesn't mean untwistable. If you want moral instruction, there is no better guide than the Bible. But if your intent is to lift things out of context and see how far you can twist each little account of the Bible to try to say something it didn't, then you can make a royal mess out of the Bible.
The Bible says a man will cling to a woman (singular), yet then it gives instructions for your behavior if you do violate that principle and take multiple wives. The Bible says God hates divorce, but it gives principles for divorce. The Bible says not to take a man to make merchandise out of him, but then it gives directions if you do have a slave, and it even uses slavery as a punishment, both for Israel and those who attacked Israel.
If you are intent on twisting each of those to mean the Bible promotes multiple wives, or divorce, or slavery, then you'll never "get it".
"is it a fundamental christian precept that you can only be saved thru accepting christ as savior?"
Yes it is. If you never sinned, you wouldn't need to be "saved", because you wouldn't be under judgement. However we know nobody has or will do that.
That's a response to you twisting my words. You ask a smartalec question, you get a smartalec answer.
Now that's a criticism of you.
Again, you seem to think that conscience is something "you manage" or "you choose". It is not. Conscience isn't, at least not by design. You can "pierce your conscience, by repeatedly violating it."
If you obeyed your conscience, you would not sin, and you would not need salvation. It is a Christian precept that there are two ways to have eternal life and the first one doesn't count.
First, if you never sin, you have eternal life. You don't need to be "saved", because you aren't under judgement. But we know, that all have sinned.
The second method is to be forgiven through accepting the sacrificial act of Jesus. If you are forgiven of your sins, you have no sin by virtue of being forgiven, and you are not under judgement, thus you are "saved".
I can't speak with absolute 100% authority on the Jews. But I have very little hope for them.
Uh huh. That was the church's excuse for making them second class citizens in christian countries, persecuting, them, stealing their property, torturing them to save their souls, and murdering them en masse, for on the order of 1200 years. What a fine moral instruction that was.
Yes, but unimpeachable, doesn't mean untwistable.
Uh huh. Who was it that was just jiving and shucking thru every obscure corner of the bible to try to make "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" to mean anything but what it actually says?
The Bible says a man will cling to a woman (singular), yet then it gives instructions for your behavior if you do violate that principle and take multiple wives. The Bible says God hates divorce, but it gives principles for divorce. The Bible says not to take a man to make merchandise out of him, but then it gives directions if you do have a slave, and it even uses slavery as a punishment, both for Israel and those who attacked Israel.
If you are intent on twisting each of those to mean the Bible promotes multiple wives, or divorce, or slavery, then you'll never "get it".
Uh huh. Is it me, or is it the bible that supplies the contradictory instructions you just enumerated? By "get it" I presume you mean "just take the the word of me, the high priest, and don't you go digging around in the holy books yourself". This has been a pretty lucrative confidence game for the last 10,000 years or so, but it wears a little thin over time--ask Martin Luther.
Yes it is. If you never sinned, you wouldn't need to be "saved", because you wouldn't be under judgement. However we know nobody has or will do that.
And so that gobbeldy gook about being saved by being true to your conscience was just so much confused biblio-drivel from that unimpeachable source of clear-cut moral guidance, the Bible. Like "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", and the unsymmetric laws against incest, and the rule against eating bats and pigs, and the instructions on fair dealings with slaves, and the instructions to the jews to enslave the virgin daughters of the Mideanites.
Sure it is. If it weren't, it would be an automatic reflex, not a conscience.
If you obeyed your conscience, you would not sin, and you would not need salvation. It is a Christian precept that there are two ways to have eternal life and the first one doesn't count.
So...are not suicidal muslim extremests who blow themselves up following the conscience of their fundamentalist beliefs? How not? So I guess, clearly, by this supposedly christian precept, fundamentalist muslim suicide bombers aren't sinful. Thanks for the enlightenment.
First, if you never sin, you have eternal life. You don't need to be "saved", because you aren't under judgement. But we know, that all have sinned.
Which makes this god's catch-22,eh? Sure you can be saved if you aren't christian--rule number 9987 says "just don't sin" against your conscience. But, of course, everyone sins.
The second method is to be forgiven through accepting the sacrificial act of Jesus. If you are forgiven of your sins, you have no sin by virtue of being forgiven, and you are not under judgement, thus you are "saved".
We've already been over this ground. Under these christian precepts, you can be a useless, evil bastard your whole stinkin' life, but if you repent in the last stages of your life, you can be saved. What a great way to promote being an evil bastard most of your life. One heck of a system for promoting morality you got there, yes-sir-ee.
Aside from the "smart" part.
The fact that you can't field a question adequately does not, in itself, make a question "smartalec". If you are going to question a scientific theory, on the basis of a religeous tract, you can pretty much expect that religeous tract to undergo scientific scrutiny. If you don't like the heat, I suggest to take yourself and your book out of the kitchen. Getting snippy and self-righteously affronted isn't going to shut down the microscope.
The conscience is something you choose to obey. You don't choose what it tells you is right from wrong. In that regard, it is more like an automatic reflex. It weighs in with right or wrong whether you want it to or not. But you can tell it to shut up.
So...are not suicidal muslim extremests who blow themselves up following the conscience of their fundamentalist beliefs? How not?
No suicide bombers are following their religious beliefs not their conscience. The two are different. Their conscience tells them that life is sacred and killing others is wrong. But they override that conscience with their desire for virgins and their dissatisfaction with this life.
"Which makes this god's catch-22,eh?"
It is not God's desire that everyone sins. But it is what we do.
Under these christian precepts, you can be a useless, evil bastard your whole stinkin' life, but if you repent in the last stages of your life, you can be saved. What a great way to promote being an evil bastard most of your life.
A person that in love with evil, isn't likely to come to Jesus anytime. And you never know whether you will live to see tomorrow.
But I am thankful for every evil bastard that suddenly woke up and repented whether he did it early in life or at the end.
When Jonah unwillingly preached to the Ninevah (a city renowned for being full of evil bastards), Ninevah repented and here's the rest of the story...
Jonah 4:1 But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was very angry. 2 And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil. 3 Therefore now, O LORD, take, I beseech thee, my life from me; for it is better for me to die than to live. 4 Then said the LORD, Doest thou well to be angry? 5 So Jonah went out of the city, and sat on the east side of the city, and there made him a booth, and sat under it in the shadow, till he might see what would become of the city. 6 And the LORD God prepared a gourd, and made it to come up over Jonah, that it might be a shadow over his head, to deliver him from his grief. So Jonah was exceeding glad of the gourd. 7 But God prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd that it withered. 8 And it came to pass, when the sun did arise, that God prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat upon the head of Jonah, that he fainted, and wished in himself to die, and said, It is better for me to die than to live. 9 And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto death. 10 Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night: 11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more then sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?
Wow! I'm new here.
This is as hotly debated a topic as I've ever seen. Consider me an "undecided swing voter".
If somebody here can prove to me that THERE IS A GOD or prove to me that THERE ISN'T A GOD I would be eternally grateful. I'm just a mortal who is looking for answers.
I think you have greatly exaggerated the churches relationship with the Jews. But there have been incidents of evil, and that was the result of evil leadership. It was against the commands of scripture.
"Who was it that was just jiving and shucking thru every obscure corner of the bible to try to make "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" to mean anything but what it actually says? "
I give up who? If I remember correctly, I told you it was moral to outlaw witchcraft and spiritism and prosecute them and that it was a moral lapse to let them practice in open. I only questioned the manner in which the trials were conducted.
"Is it me, or is it the bible that supplies the contradictory instructions you just enumerated? "
It's you. It's like your parents telling you not to get into trouble, but if you do come talk to us. "Come talk to us when you are in trouble" does not condone getting into trouble in the first place.
By "get it" I presume you mean "just take the the word of me, the high priest, and don't you go digging around in the holy books yourself".
I mean read the books in their entirety until you have enough knowledge to interpret these snippets you keep pulling out of context. You don't need me to tell you what they say, but if you are going to only read biblical "sound bites" from atheist websites, you are going to end up with a dramatically different view of the Bible than you should. Just like if you listened to MSM sound bites of presidential speeches.
"And so that gobbeldy gook about being saved by being true to your conscience was just so much confused biblio-drivel from that unimpeachable source of clear-cut moral guidance, the Bible.
That everyone else sinned, does not make sin acceptable.
Eric, God proves that He exists in many ways. But doubt can always be cast. Think about it.
If God manifested himself in all of his glory, so that none could dispute that a being with amazing unexplainable powers existed. People could still say, it's an illusion. Or it's a plot by the Jews. Or Karl Rove did it. Or it's an ET but it's not our creator. People determined to doubt will always find a way. But God doesn't manifest Himself in all of His glory to man, because He prefers that we choose between good and evil.
I once read a 900 page book by Karl Jung titled "Does God exist?" And proof after proof was offered, but there was always a rebuttal that could cast doubt. 850 pages into it, the author concluded that "proof" was best acheived on a personal revelation between the individual and God. And while I agree that God proving Himself to you directly is the best proof, God left us a lot of evidence.
A couple of comments on personal revelation. God extends an invitation repeatedly to seek Him out. When the Jews asked for a sign, Jesus called them wicked for needing one, some He gave no sign to, but others He gave a huge sign, the sign of Jonah. But when Herod sought a miracle, Jesus was completely silent. There is a difference between seeking wisdom and knowledge and needing signs. Nevertheless, sometimes God does grant signs.
Next post evidence from prophecies and miracles.
As science does not deal in proof, and religious deals in unreliable forms of proof, probably you'll just have to continue making your life's decisions in the face of uncertain knowledge.
No suicide bombers are following their religious beliefs not their conscience. The two are different. Their conscience tells them that life is sacred and killing others is wrong.
Now whose the mind-reader? That's not how I read the Koran. Is this, perhaps, a christian conscience you are channeling? Ask it how to square this with "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."?
It is not God's desire that everyone sins. But it is what we do.
Which makes it a sort of pointless exercise in hypocrisy to be continuing to point out that heathens and/or orthodox jews can go to heaven by living sin-free, according to the dictates of their conscience, doesn't it?
But I am thankful for every evil bastard that suddenly woke up and repented whether he did it early in life or at the end.
I'm perfectly aware that christian theology does not much concern itself with how much evil its biblically based policies can inflict on the world. That's one of the glories of receiving absolute, unimpeachable TRUTH into your heart, like Torquemada, for example, who constantly affirmed his christian love for the souls of the people whose mere bodies he tortured and destroyed, as slowly, painfully, and creatively as has ever been seen on this planet.
It's you.
To an unprejudiced observer who still has two working neurons to rub together, it's quite obviously the Bible--from which you were quoting.
I think you have greatly exaggerated the churches relationship with the Jews.
Ok, perhaps you can hustle down to the library, and acquaint me with the historical record, of, say, all the large jewish ghettos in the path of the 1st crusade that were spared.
But there have been incidents of evil, and that was the result of evil leadership. It was against the commands of scripture.
No, they weren't, they were spurred on from the pulpit using numerous anti-jewish passages from the Gospels, and the fundamental christian docrine that to know of jesus but not accept him as savior condemned you to hell. Which is exactly what an orthodox jew is. How many times were you told in sunday school that the agony of christ was in no small part his rejection and persecution by his people. And don't you be fibbin' to me now, you know perfectly well that this is a fundamental part of christian doctrine.
Not at all!!! The criteria that God judges us by, is not whether we are mostly good or mostly evil. The criteria is whether we have any sin at all or not. He doesn't call us to be good, He calls us to be "perfect". He doesn't judge man on the bell curve of human goodness but rather according to His own glory, His own perfection.
Only by a person coming to grips with the fact that he has sinned when the goal is perfection, can a person be expected to recognize that he needs salvation.
Jesus was asked three times how to have eternal life. Twice he pointed to the law, but in such a way as to convince the asker of their sin. Once with the Jew, Nicodemus, Jesus said you must be born again...you must believe in me.
Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
I mean read the books in their entirety until you have enough knowledge to interpret these snippets you keep pulling out of context.
Or, putting it another way: Let 20 years of letting priests put your brain on hold with their wordy, preachy, etherial incantations turn your ability to think critically about what you are reading into vague mush--and then you are ready to understand the bible. Thanks, I think I understand your revulsion at trying to understand the declarative sentence, as if it ought to be an attempt to communicate some distinct meaning, from a book that said priests contend is the unimpeachable source of morality. What could I have been thinking?--it's much better to try to understand a declarative sentence by channeling the entire book it occurs in through a crystal ball the priest maintains in his head. Why would anyone want to question such an analytical approach to deciding what one ought to do?
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