[donh]

"That was the church's excuse for making them second class citizens in christian countries, persecuting, them, stealing their property, torturing them to save their souls, and murdering them en masse, for on the order of 1200 years. "

I think you have greatly exaggerated the churches relationship with the Jews.

Ok, perhaps you can hustle down to the library, and acquaint me with the historical record, of, say, all the large jewish ghettos in the path of the 1st crusade that were spared.

But there have been incidents of evil, and that was the result of evil leadership. It was against the commands of scripture.

No, they weren't, they were spurred on from the pulpit using numerous anti-jewish passages from the Gospels, and the fundamental christian docrine that to know of jesus but not accept him as savior condemned you to hell. Which is exactly what an orthodox jew is. How many times were you told in sunday school that the agony of christ was in no small part his rejection and persecution by his people. And don't you be fibbin' to me now, you know perfectly well that this is a fundamental part of christian doctrine.

[DannyTN]

"No, they weren't, they were spurred on from the pulpit using numerous anti-jewish passages from the Gospels, and the fundamental christian docrine that to know of jesus but not accept him as savior condemned you to hell. Which is exactly what an orthodox jew is.

Scripture also speaks of the Lord's love for the Jews. The example given by scripture is that Paul tries to witness to the Jews even as they try to stone Him.

Anybody who construes a passage of scripture as an excuse to persecute the Jews has failed to understand a major part of scripture. They've failed to understand:

• The promise to Abraham to "bless those that bless you and curse those that curse you" was an unconditional promise.
• The promise of God to Israel to bring them back and restore them as a nation.
• That God loves the Jews as evidenced by Jesus weeping over Jerusalem.
• And both Jesus and Revelations comments about the glorious future for the Jews after the time of the gentiles.

I'm not denying that selective scripture has been used by anti-semites. But to do so was evil.

How many times were you told in sunday school that the agony of christ was in no small part his rejection and persecution by his people. And don't you be fibbin' to me now, you know perfectly well that this is a fundamental part of christian doctrine.

Their rejection caused him agony because He loved them so much. How you construe that into a mandate to kill Jews, I don't know. The agony of Christ was never presented as a reason to hate Jews in any of the churches I've ever been to. Jesus asked the Father to forgive them for they know not what they do, how can we do less?

• John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
• 1 Corinthians 10:32 - Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
• Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
• Romans 2:10 - But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
• Romans 10:12 - For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
• John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.