Catholic Analysis: Mariology is Biblical

Vivificat! - A Catholic Blog of Commentary and Opinion ^ | 27 December 2005 | Teófilo

[Teófilo]

You're still ignorant of Scripture. How to win friends and influence people.

I...didn't write that. (?)

-Theo

[annalex]

You can call me Alex.

The Eternal God existed before Mary, and Mary gave birth to Him.

[Hieronymus]

Semantics and you know it.

warm regards.

---

Semantics--quite literally yes--

However semantics is important, and those who dismiss the discipline usually are demonstrating pride in ignorance.

Semantics, the study of meaning with regards to language, is derived from the Greek semantikos, referring to what things signify--i.e.--mean.

Mariology is a compound of a Hebrew root and a Greek root.
Mariolatry is a compound of the same Hebrew root and a different Greek word.

The distinction between the two is unimportant if the Greek words latria and logos are both unimportant, which to anyone versed in a moderate amount of Greek and a moderate amount of theology, can be true only if Christianity is meaningless.

Various sub-fields of theology have their own names--Christology, Mariology, Ecclesiology, Eschatology, Moral Theology, Dogmatic Theology, Biblical Theology, Spiritual Theology--

We worship Christ and we study Christ. But it does not follow that we worship all that we study.

[OLD REGGIE]

God was under Mary's authority, though probably not in the sense that you were thinking when you wrote your comment.

Jesus, the Son Of God, certainly was under the authority of Mary and Joseph.

Luke 2:
48: And when they saw him they were astonished; and his mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously." 49: And he said to them, "How is it that you sought me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father's house?"
50: And they did not understand the saying which he spoke to them.
51: And he went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them; and his mother kept all these things in her heart.
52: And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man.

Certainly you don't think it is possible for God to "increase in wisdom..."?

[vimto]

I have been a Catholic and know the teachings on Mary. the problem is, (among many) that shades of meaning translate into something different in practice.

No you insist you don't worship Mary. Fine. In practice you kneel to her, pray to her, receive grace from her and so on.... It's hard to see it as anything other than a slight of hand.

No other aspect of your theology is treated in the same way. You don't pray to eschatology for instance.

Indeed there is much to suggest that Catholicism is glued together by orthopraxy rather than orthodoxy.

But I accept that you hold your position with integrity. I happen not to agree with it.

Kind regards,

[xzins]

If you are not searching, it is not for you. I was involved with different Protestant churches for long time.

Thank you for your polite response, nmmom.

My point also has to do with this being a thread that targets protestants. I feel compelled to support those protestants who might be searching. Since they are already protestants, it is only fair that they hear first from one of their own.

[xzins]

I know you didn't write it. That is why your name was in the second ping position.

[xzins]

Thank you Alex.

I am glad that you agree that the Eternal God existed prior to the birth of Mary.

It is therefore necessary to conclude that you mean something different when you quote the "Mother of God" forumlation, for it is not possible that it means that Mary pre-existed God and gave rise to this God that pre-existed her. You mean what you are saying in formulaic language and that is all I need to know.

[Hieronymus]

Indeed there is much to suggest that Catholicism is glued together by orthopraxy rather than orthodoxy.

---

Actually there is so little of either in the trenches that I would conclude that it is only held together by grace.


No other aspect of your theology is treated in the same way. You don't pray to eschatology for instance.

---

No aspect of theology worthy of being a sub-field can be treated in the same way as any other subfield. That is why Mariology is its own sub-field of theology and not merely lumped in either with Christology or the study of the saints (whom those of us guilty of orthopraxy also pray to). Christology and Mariology are distinct as well, which, as Newman demonstrated at some length is enough to clear the Church of the charge of Mariolotry.


No you insist you don't worship Mary. Fine. In practice you kneel to her, pray to her, receive grace from her and so on.... It's hard to see it as anything other than a slight of hand.

---

Kneel--
Not an honour unique to Mary. Kneeling has rather fallen from favour as a sign of honour in the west--but bending the knee was used as a sign of high honour in various situations, some of which involved worship and some of which didn't. Byzantine Court ceremonial (probably swiped from the Persians) required one to genuflect on the left knee to the Emperor (right knee genuflections were reserved for God)--this ceremonial made its way west. Charles I was the last english king to employ this ceremonial (were Henry "defender of the faith" VIII, Ed. VI,Good Queen Bess, and James I guilty of being worshipped?).

Pray--
I pray to all sorts of people, leaving out only those who are in hell. I hold that the saints, in virtue of having the beatific vision, have a much better grasp of what is going on on earth than we do. As to the souls in purgatory--their knowledge is anyone's guess, but it can't hurt to ask.


Receive grace from her--
Only if from is understand in the sense of through. But, we all receive all graces through her because all graces flow through Christ and Christ came about through her "yes" at the Incarnation. As an instrument, she doesn't have the power to cause the effect of herself, but she still is a real cause. God could have done it some other way, but Mary is the way he chose. Only if one could receive grace apart from Christ could one receive grace apart from Mary.

[annalex]

You mean what you are saying in formulaic language and that is all I need to know.

No, it is not formulaic language if by that you mean a code word with a meaning artificially attached, like when we say "nine one one" and mean "emergency". Mother is one giving birth. Jesus Christ is God. Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ. She is mother of Jesus Christ. She is mother of God.

You mentally insert preexistence into motherhood. It is not necessarily true even with my mother, or yours, because we don't really know when my soul or yours began to exist (we know that our ensoulment predated our mothers' ensoulment, a different thing). It is surely not true with the conception and birth of Christ, because the scripture tell us so. When we ask, -- How? the scripture answers, -- Because all things are possible with God. Mary is the mother of God Who preexisted her in the most direct unconvoluted straighforward sense.

[xzins]

Your response confirmed what I wrote.

You do not think that Mary before the God came into being. (Which is a good thing, since God is eternal.)

[Rippin]

Sounds like a good starting point to me, with the proviso that honoring Mary will always be mandatory in the Church, but being devoted to her in whatever degree, is optional, but highly recommended.

---

Definitely. You be dissin' the Theotokos and out you go.

[Rippin]

I sense Nestorian thoughtwaves in thems that don't like calling Mary the "Mother of God."

[vimto]

You have every explanation, moving from tradition, semantics, history, doctrine, the Bible, philosophy etc. yet of many word and many books we can grow weary.

Me, I'll forsake it all. Mary is my sister in Christ and is due my every love and repect. She was indeed singularly blessed and I shall forever acnowledge it. I shall stick with God's word and look to ...

Jesus alone, the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, the only mediator between God and man.

Jesus is enough and more, for now and forever, To Him alone I bow the knee in humble adoration.

Amen.
with warmest regards and thanks for your time and attention,

[Hieronymus]

vimto--thank you for your time, attention, and pursuit of the truth.

Teófilo and Rippin--given your agreement in 273 that devotion to Mary is merely optional but highly recommended I thought I'd post this to you as well.


Mary is our sister in Christ, but a deep Biblical spirituality will acknowledge her as something more:

Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:41) not only when she put forward the words of Luke 1:42, to which you allude, but also Luke 1:43 "Why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me." Her soul magnifies the Lord (1:46) and by her "the thoughts of many hearts are made known (2:35).

Look to Jesus--yes--but both through Jesus to the undivided unity and from Jesus see all creation, beginning with "Behold your mother (Jn. 19:27).

If Jesus is all we were meant to interact with, why did God bother making the rest of creation available to us? Why not make the universe work more a la Berkeley (the philosopher not the university?) We are not supposed to fill the earth and ignore it but fill the earth and, to be as literal with the Hebrew as possible, "lambify" it--reduce ourselves and the rest of creation to a state resembling a lambs. Mary is more lambified than anyone else--for she is the one who had the Little Lamb. Everywhere that Mary goes, the Lamb is sure to go.

Merry Christmas

[vimto]

Mary is more lambified than anyone else--for she is the one who had the Little Lamb. Everywhere that Mary goes, the Lamb is sure to go....

ooow... that's ..... well..... not what I expected you to write and that's for sure!

Ahve a Great Chstmas and New Year 2006 A.D.

[Teófilo]

I know you didn't write it. That is why your name was in the second ping position.

Ok...I'm still getting used to the protocols around here...

-Theo

[Full Court]

Matthew 12:47  Then one said unto him,
Behold, thy mother
and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

48  But he answered and said unto him that told him,
Who is my mother?
and who are my brethren?

49  And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said,
Behold my mother and my brethren!

50  For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven,
the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

[Full Court]

The Church is protected by the Holy Ghost from teaching anything self-contradictory, because the "gates of Hell shall not prevail against her"

"The Catholic church, however, does not admit error easily the sex abuse tragedies or move quickly.

The new pope, Benedict XVI,
seems to be in favor of killing limbo off
and this month convened a meeting of 30 theologians to come up with a more inclusive view of salvation."

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2005/December/31/edit/stories/01edit.htm