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Yes, I understand both the 1st and 2nd law ...the question is do you? And please point me to scientific FACTS or REAL SCIENTISTS who say that evolutionary theory somehow escapes the 2nd ????

One of the biggest lies by evolutionists is to claim their "theory" is somehow exempt because the universe is not a closed system?

Now rather than try and insult people, try bringing some real science to the table.

FYI caffe, Quark2005 is a physicist.

"One of the biggest lies by evolutionists is to claim their "theory" is somehow exempt because the universe is not a closed system?"

The universe IS a closed system; the Earth is most definitely NOT a closed system. No evolutionist is saying the Universe is not closed. Entropy can increase in the universe as a whole while order increases on the Earth. There is no contradiction.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000D4FEC-7D5B-1D07-8E49809EC588EEDF&pageNumber=4&catID=2

[Thanks to the "list-o-links"]

From an article aptly titled "15 Answers to Creationist Nonsense "

"9. The Second Law of Thermodynamics says that systems must become more disordered over time. Living cells therefore could not have evolved from inanimate chemicals, and multicellular life could not have evolved from protozoa.

This argument derives from a misunderstanding of the Second Law. If it were valid, mineral crystals and snowflakes would also be impossible, because they, too, are complex structures that form spontaneously from disordered parts.

The Second Law actually states that the total entropy of a closed system (one that no energy or matter leaves or enters) cannot decrease. Entropy is a physical concept often casually described as disorder, but it differs significantly from the conversational use of the word.

More important, however, the Second Law permits parts of a system to decrease in entropy as long as other parts experience an offsetting increase. Thus, our planet as a whole can grow more complex because the sun pours heat and light onto it, and the greater entropy associated with the sun's nuclear fusion more than rebalances the scales. Simple organisms can fuel their rise toward complexity by consuming other forms of life and nonliving materials. "

Yes, I understand both the 1st and 2nd law ...the question is do you?

I have a reasonably good understanding. The 2nd Law is a pretty tough concept.

And please point me to scientific FACTS or REAL SCIENTISTS who say that evolutionary theory somehow escapes the 2nd ????

Evolution doesn't escape the 2nd Law. But it doesn't violate it either.

One of the biggest lies by evolutionists is to claim their "theory" is somehow exempt because the universe is not a closed system?

No evolutionist says this, only you.

Now rather than try and insult people, try bringing some real science to the table.

Certainly. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics says that

where S is the entropy of a closed system and t is time. Thermodynamic entropy is defined in a reversible process in which an amount of heat δ Q is introduced to the system as

In irreversible transformations, the entropy of a system can be shown to obey the relation

That is, the change in entropy of a system can be shown to be the integrated sum of the heat energy divided by the temperature that goes into the transformation process at hand. You're correct that this concept applies to all systems, but your attempt to handwave the law for 'evolution' fails for two reasons:

1) In real systems, actually measuring entropy is quite difficult. One possible way to do it requires the measurement of heat capacity at both constant volume a set of states over an integrable range of states between the reference and desired state. Unless you can at least semi-accurately quantify the entropy difference between two states, any application of the 2nd law is impossible. It may be quite possible that the entropy of 200 lbs. of primitive microbes has more entropy than a 200 lb. human, for example.

2) The entropy of a system can very well decrease in a system, as long as energy is input into the system. The 2nd Law still applies to such systems, and the amount that the entropy can change in such a subsystem depends empirically on the equation(s) given above. Increase the energy input, and the entropy can decrease, subject to the limits imposed above by the 2nd Law. If entropy of a subsystem could never decrease, ice could never freeze in your freezer, for example.
In order to consider a system where dS/dt is guaranteed to be greater than zero at all times, you have to consider the source of energy input as part of the system. Biochemical processes constantly take in heat from the sun (and geothermal energy in many cases). There is no doubt that the entropy of the earth-sun system is increasing - this occurs with every fusion reaction in the sun's core that produces the energetic radiation; it also happens in the environment as heat and waste products are output from biochemical processes into the earth's environment. The intermediate system, life, can very well have a localized entropy increase as it is only part of the system as a whole. In fact, according to the 2nd Law, the ordering of a subsystem requires an increase in entropy of the system around it as a whole.

The totality of this is that the Laws of Thermodynamics, while holding universally true, can't really be applied in a sweeping statement to the constituent lifeforms of the biosphere.

This is why that, absolutely nowhere you will find any entry in any peer-reviewed scientific journal that evolution is somehow prohibited by the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, and why such an assertion has absolutely no truth to it whatsover. (A basic link describing the definition and practical use of entropy.)