Natalee Holloway - Case Discussion Extended Thread 16

Various News Outlets | 8/26/05

[TexKat]

Surinamese Deepak Kalpoe, 21, arrives to court in Oranjestad, Aruba, Friday, Aug. 26, 2005. Aruban police arrested Kalpoe and his brother Satish, 18, along with a third person according to government spokesman Ruben Trapenberg, saying he doesn't know if the arrests are connected to the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. The two brothers had been previously detained and released. (AP Photo/Pedro Famous Diaz)

Surinamese Satish Kalpoe, 18, front, gets in a car to go to court in Oranjestad, Aruba, Friday, Aug. 26, 2005. Two Surinamese brothers, Satish and Deepak Kalpoe, who had been detained and released in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway were arrested again Friday based on new evidence, officials said. The brothers were detained on suspicion of involvement, with unidentified 'other people,' in premeditated murder and rape, the prosecutor's office said. Person to the right is unidentified. (AP Photo/Farrah Boekhoudt)

[LongViewSC]

I missed the Dr. Phil show, based on the stuff on his web site my blood pressure would have gone off the chart. Aruba needs to be boycotted now. There is only one valid reason in my book for any Americans to travel to Aruba now. I don't know what Dave is planning, but I know what I would be planning. I don't know how the Holloway's are able to show so much self control. I can't believe what is happening. We need to encourage everyone we know to demand justice for Natalle (write letters to American Politicians, Aruba, etc). In addition, people should contact the price-is-right and tell them to stop giving trips to Aruba.

[shebacal]

Is rape a crime in Aruba?

After Urine confessed to sex with Natalee while she was going in and out of consciousness, it would seen to any rational person that the crime of rape was committed by Urine.

But, in the topsy-turvy world of Aruban law, it looks like rape is not a crime on the "one-happy-island".

Fox News.com, Fri. June 10, 2005:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159128,00.html

"According to Aruba law, only strong suspicion — not evidence — is necessary to continue holding a suspect."

Since Urine was let go, it looks like rape is not a crime on Aruba

[shebacal]

Correction:

Since Urine was let go, it looks like rape is not a crime on Aruba (unless the suspect is a black security guard, then, I'm sure, rape would be a crime on Aruba).

[LongViewSC]

Aruba, frowns upon the teens of it ruling class getting caught raping tourists, but as long as they are careful everyone looks the other way and just says. Boys will be boys, and is just the girls that wanted it anyways that they get. You just have to listen to the suspect's words on Dr. Phil to hear this between the lines.

I wish we would send in the Marines. We need some leaders that won't worry about polls.

[Froufrou]

Thank you, all! I wish I had seen him all fired up! But, I did go to the site and printed off the addresses he has listed.

I intend to work on a very solid letter to the tune of this being on the Dutch heads for all eternity, long after our lives are as gone as Natalee.

[BlueHorseShoe]

Btw, sorry if this was covered and I missed it. Did Urine write a letter to Dan Abrams? I caught the tail-end of something I think Rita Cosby (I know, I know...ugh) was saying about a letter written and they were showing a photo that you couldn't see very well but I thought I could make out "Dear Mr. Abrams".

What was that about? Again, I searched this thread but could not find a mention of it.

[shebacal]

I've been looking for the criminal code for Aruba, which would define rape, as the Aruba government defines it. So far this is what I have found for the Netherlands:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/wfbcjnet.txt

It's a long article, here is the part about rape:

"Article 242 of the Criminal Code states that
a person is guilty of forcible rape if through the
use of force, threatened use of force or another
act of violence forces the sexual penetration of
the body of another. The punishment for forcible
rape is a maximum prison sentence of 12 years or a
fine of the fifth category (1,000,000 Dutch
guilders)."

"The Code of Criminal Procedure expresses
preference for fines over other forms of custodial
sanctions and requires an explanation be given by
the judge when a custodial sentence is imposed.
Fines, theoretically, can be handed down for any
offense, including murder. They are, however,
generally handed down for infractions, and many
crimes of a nonviolent, nonserious nature.
Incarceration is reserved for more serious
offenses such as murder and manslaughter, rape,
serious property and drug offenses. (Tak, 1993:
35)."

If this code for the Netherlands is the same as for Aruba, and if Urine is prosecuted and conviced for rape, the maximum time he could get in prison is 12 years. Or, maybe he papa could buy Urine's way out of prison for 1 million guilders. 12 years is not enough for rape.

[shebacal]

Did Urine write a letter to Dan Abrams?

I seem to remember a statement made that Rita Cosby has received a letter from Urine saying that when he is released, he will talk to her on her show.

[Yellow Jacket]

> After Urine confessed to sex with Natalee while she was
> going in and out of consciousness, it would seen to any
> rational person that the crime of rape was committed by Urine.

But did he really confess to that? All we have to that effect is a claim by Beth, who is hardly an unbiased source in the affair.

The situation is: the three suspects were ordered released by a judge who determined that there was not enough evidence to hold them. I don't believe a judge trainee like Paulus vdS would have enough clout to influence several sitting judges, including Superior Court judges.

Face it, like the US, Netherlands (and it's dependent territories) is under the rule of law. That means that evidence is required to hold and convict suspects. That means that sometimes, guilty people (if they are guilty) will go free. The system is not perfect, but it i0s far better than the alternative.

[BlueHorseShoe]

I am sure we'll begin to see Urine on many talk shows telling us all his lies. Unreal.

[shebacal]

Face it, like the US, Netherlands (and it's dependent territories) is under the rule of law.

Under the rule of law? Then why did ALE wait 10 days to arrest the 3 men to last be seen with Natalee? Surely not to allow them to destroy evidence. /sarcasm

Why was PVDS' property not fully searched, but only where he allowed?

Even in the US there are periodic convictions for judges accepting bribes. I would imagine it could happen in Aruba, too.

The judge-trainee Paulus was into gambling, along with his son. Was he upholding the law against underage gambling when he was in the casinos with his son, gambling?

When Beth, Jug, police and others arrived at PVDS' home about 3AM on May 31st, Paulus said maybe Joran was at one of the casinos. Some parenting! Some moral character for a judge-in-training

[shebacal]

I see you just signed up today, and this is your first post to this Natalee thread. Welcome to FR.

BTW, I would trust Beth's word over anyone else on Aruba.

[BlueHorseShoe]

"...But did he really confess to that? All we have to that effect is a claim by Beth, who is hardly an unbiased source in the affair..."

That was information from translated police reports signed by police officers who took Urine's own statements on June 13, 2005, if I'm not mistaken. Not made up by Beth and whether or not she is unbiased she can only tell us the truth of what she's learned. Sounds like you might not be abreast of some of the factual information that exists and is not heresay.

[Yellow Jacket]

> Under the rule of law? Then why did ALE wait 10 days to
> arrest the 3 men to last be seen with Natalee? Surely not to
> allow them to destroy evidence. /sarcasm

I do not see what possible benefit ALE would have to go soft on them. As far as bribes - there are so many people involved in this "conspiracy" that the bribe tab would truly be astronomical.

> When Beth, Jug, police and others arrived at PVDS' home
> about 3AM on May 31st, Paulus said maybe Joran was at one
> of the casinos. Some parenting! Some moral character for a
> judge-in-training

Only if you think gambling is morally wrong. Also much of the world has a more relaxed attitude towards age restrictions. That a 17 year old can enter a 18 year old only place does not surprise me at all.

[Yellow Jacket]

> That was information from translated police reports signed
> by police officers who took Urine's own statements on June
> 13, 2005, if I'm not mistaken.

Are those reports available to the public? Have you seen them reprinted in some media outlet or on the internet?
My impression is that Beth allegedly saw these reports and allegedly has a copy and also makes statements as to their contents but that she has not shown the actual reports to anyone. Am I mistaken?

> Not made up by Beth and whether or not she is unbiased she
> can only tell us the truth of what she's learned.

Whether or not it was made up by Beth we do not know until she actually shows these reports or until ALE says they exist and confirm their contents. Otherwise, it is just hearsay.

> Sounds like you might not be abreast of some of the
> factual information that exists and is not heresay.

Then please enlighten me.

[shebacal]

The situation is: the three suspects were ordered released by a judge who determined that there was not enough evidence to hold them.

"According to Aruba law, only strong suspicion — not evidence — is necessary to continue holding a suspect." I would think, even for the abysmal ALE, that there is plenty of "strong suspicion" against Urine to continue to hold him.

[Yellow Jacket]

Thank you. :)

[BlueHorseShoe]

"...Face it, like the US, Netherlands (and it's dependent territories) is under the rule of law..."

Rule of law is the operative word here. Then you say:

"...That a 17 year old can enter a 18 year old only place does not surprise me at all..."

Do you care about what the law is or not? Urine apparently had accounts at many casinos. It is unlawful to allow an underaged person to gamble in Aruba. But then again they would have to care about the rule of law and they obviously do not.

[Yellow Jacket]

> "According to Aruba law, only strong suspicion — not
> evidence — is necessary to continue holding a suspect." I
> would think, even for the abysmal ALE, that there is plenty
> of "strong suspicion" against Urine to continue to hold him.

According to Aruba law the suspect can be held for different amounts of time (up to 116 days) and each time it has to be approved by a judge based on evidence. After 116 days, a suspect has to be formally charged with a crime.

Holding somebody indefinetly without evidence is modus operandi in banana republics.

[Yellow Jacket]

> Do you care about what the law is or not? Urine apparently
> had accounts at many casinos. It is unlawful to allow an
> underaged person to gamble in Aruba. But then again they
> would have to care about the rule of law and they obviously
> do not.

You have the US notion of age checks. Where middle aged people are carded because a store or night club can be held legally liable for letting an underage person in. Laws in most other places are not nearly as strict.