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Natalee Holloway - Case Discussion Extended Thread 5
Various News Outlets | 7/4/05

Posted on 07/04/2005 6:39:22 PM PDT by TexKat

Mountain Brook High School graduate Natalee Holloway went missing May 30 during a senior trip to Aruba.

AP photo


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: aruba; bethholloway; boycottaruba; fubaruba; jossymansur; kalpoes; mariainecroes; natalee; nataleeholloway; rubentrapenberg; vandersloots
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To: CitizenM

Your post is so good it deserves repeating. After scrolling down and checking out thread 6, I'm quite surprised that no one has replied to you. Your post was well thought out and well written and I for one appreciate all the time you spent writing it.





I offer my reflection on this case in agreement with all who have tried to bring some objectivity to the Natalee threads, who care deeply that she is located, have concern for her family, but who wish to have a more calm, open discussion about other possibilities without condemnation or ridicule from opposing posters. All opinions are just that – opinions. I remain open to all possibilities including a willingness to accept that the current suspect might be guilty. However, there are many who believe there is no real proof of anything and prefer not to succumb to the “lynch mob/name-calling” approach and the demeaning of individuals based on assumptions, circumstances, speculation and emotions.

Like so many others I have followed this story since the beginning. I have read most all the statements, threads, and posts on here and other blogs/forums, watched the news coverage, and have seen how many contradictions have arisen or words were changed/slanted to suit the current line of thinking as it progressed, or someone’s comment or question was not accepted with consideration or as it was meant. I have seen professionals on TV argue that no one but Joran could be responsible. And I have heard others debunk some aspects of that theory based on their willingness to entertain other possibilities, or challenge the validity of some things that do not seem probable.

Yesterday I watched the Twitty’s attorney when she was asked about what Beth had said about the Kalpoe brothers. She said she advised Beth not to continue with those types of statements. Evidently she is trying to encourage that the attacks cease. At this time I feel this is in the best interest of the family and that they be helped to allow some consideration for other possible options to their desire for answers.

There is much support that any caring person wants to give a grieving parent at a time like this. Thousands, including me, feel the Twitty’s agony and hope and pray that Natalee is safe somewhere and found. Initially we all wanted it solved easily, we wanted Joran to provide the answers, and Natalee to show up and everyone continue with their lives. When this did not happen we were frustrated, but that frustration cannot drive everyone to remain focused on only one possibility.

There also come a point when kindness for the Twitty family also includes helping them deal with the current known reality, no matter how ugly and different it might be than their suppositions.

I feel that the kindest support Beth and her family can get from people would be to help them turn their focus away from trying to create negativity against a few people (with whom there is no proof of any criminal action against Natalee). It would be more positive for them to allow for the possibility that other individuals, yet unknown, might be responsible. There might be an answer to what happened in this tragedy, or that answer might never come. Prayers for Natalee’s safety are needed more than angry words, and can do more than the negative vibes and nasty comments (bordering on hatred) that are currently being spewed out. The process of accepting should begin which would be more beneficial to the family at this point. And heartfelt prayers that they can find peace should replace the wild, public condemnations of those still considered innocent. The serenity prayer comes to mind:

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next. Amen

Don’t misunderstand me, I want justice just as much as the next person. I am not one who advocates allowing anyone, anywhere, regardless of position, status, or any circumstances, who is guilty of a crime go without punishment. But, until guilt is proven, there must be sensible focus on facts not just on suppositions and emotions.

For a family, participating in efforts to discover the truth can often get so overwhelming that it becomes a hindrance rather than help when they are so emotionally connected. (Believe me I know, and just do not wish to elaborate here.) Professionals are trained to remain objective and it is best not to expect them to proceed just on feelings alone. It is true that parents can provide a lot of insight in cases. It is true that there are/were conflicting statements, (yes, even lies that I agree cause concern), questionable actions, unusual circumstances, etc. that had and have yet to be investigated and some might always remain unclear.

It is also true that we all wish the authorities had acted more quickly or differently in the beginning. But constant bickering now cannot change the way they proceeded then. Thousands of man hours and thousands of dollars have been spent, far more than for many other missing children who are not as fortunate to have such resources dispensed for them (including high tech resources and aerial support). One can wonder now if such intensive attention and allotment of resources will be the case for the next missing child who does not get the hype and spotlight.

However, there is an element that should also be addressed: It does seem unlikely that one 17 –year-old, unskilled, island high school boy could have committed the “perfect” crime in such a small location and in such a short period of time - and who had no known abilities to be so incredibly thorough or capable. If Joran is guilty of something more than an irresponsible, stupid act of leaving Natalee on the beach (which occurs all the time at Easter Break here in the states by students every season- I have seen it plenty of times) then he should be punished to the full extent of Aruba’s laws. But it will have been a feat that even the most practiced criminal/s would have found hard to have done so successfully without hours and days of prior planning and without resources immediately available and as immediately disposable.

I have read on various threads where others have interpreted every single look, word, action, article of clothing, even physical appearance and bodily response of the suspects and their families as being something evil and suspicious. People have used the term “ugly” to describe Joran’s mother, and made demeaning comments and suppositions about Paulus’ perspiration (Beth might never have seen a person “sweat like that” but it seems she leads a very privileged life as do many of her family. I have seen men and women “sweat” profusely when worried, sad, stressed, or just because of diabetes or another illness. Women wake up at night wringing wet during menopause for heaven’s sake). Unkind words have been used by many to describe the personalities of people they don’t even know. How is that helping this case?

I have seen mothers and fathers who, when protecting their children, have become so irate and opposite of their normal behavior that it has surprised all who even know them well. To judge a parent is “evil” because of his desire to protect his child is just not kind. Just as it has been unkind in the past to quickly judge family members (ala Jessica Lundsford’s father and grandparents) when a child disappears. But, on this case what makes one father’s aggression on behalf of finding his child more appropriate than another’s in protecting his child? The families are all suffering. The Twitty family has the deepest anguish over the loss of their daughter, of course but the Van der Sloot’s lives have been destroyed, and the Kalpoe family is also devastated.

So far the only reality here is truly because the teens in this situation have all done things they were told not to do, (however innocent and typical). Now their families are suffering and tangled in a horrible tragedy of fear, anger, hatred, financial devastation, character assassination, and possibly crime. It is almost Shakespearean. If there is anything to be learned from this I hope it is that children everywhere understand the importance of obeying their parents, and that constant, responsible supervision be provided when our children are away from home and inexperienced in taking care of themselves.

One person wrote in reply me once that we are all “outsiders” to the Twitty family so how can I make statements about them (when I expressed my concerns that their approach had become somewhat beyond being resolute and appeared to be more expecting of worldwide vengeance for the suspects). I wondered how, then, can anyone here make statements about any of the families or family members involved in this case? We are certainly “outsiders” to all those being scrutinized so hurtfully. So, in turn to that person’s question: how can they judge the van der Sloot or Kalpoe families and their behavior? And, how can anyone here feel that their own anger, name-calling, argumentative comments against the suspects and others (who don’t echo the same agenda they are supporting) can bring about anything constructive?

For example: If someone came to my door in the middle of the night to hotly and haughtily question my child I would also probably be defensive and tell my son he did not have to answer anyone but the police, as Mr. VDS said to his son. Then, the next day it should not be so surprising if I were not out assisting the people who questioned my son; who publicly said they found him “suspicious” and made other unkind remarks, and subsequently embarked on a campaign against him. Rather I would be doing what I felt I needed to do to continue to protect my own child who had become a target and I believed wrongfully so.

And, as most all other parents, I would also be very angry with my own child for disobeying and leaving the house and becoming involved in something that even led to the suspicions, or gave a preponderance of guilt, even if innocent of any criminal act. I might not accept all my child said as truth, but to be sure, in any event, I would be focused on my own child and making use of whatever necessary to protect him in the event that he was being truthful.

Would any of us immediately accept the notions of someone unknown to us who insinuated that our child was guilty of a crime without wanting to protect our child against the flames of that anguished parent? If, not knowing anything for certain, and being pounced upon in the middle of the night, wouldn’t many of us retaliate with a bit of anger and consternation? Still, I would also have compassion for the other family -- as Mrs. Van der Sloot certainly demonstrated, and appeared entirely sincere, and as the Kalpoe’s mother displayed when also interviewed.

Recently, on another thread, I have seen where some are finally advocating a prayer thread. I mentioned that prayer was the best we could all do when I posted that comment on the “third Natalee thread.” It was my hope we could all spend more time in prayer than in anger. I tried to do that throughout the weeks rather than spend time posting. If the energy that is being spent filling the air with hateful comments would be turned to positive energy of prayer and support and wishes that the Twitty family would find peace, I believe that would be more helpful.

I have also stated that at first I admitted to jumping on the bandwagon against Joran, Aruba, etc. But I soon realized I could be wrong, things just did not seem to uphold the theories being presented. So, I tried early on to bring some objectivity to the discussion and not focus on rumors or suppositions. I had hoped that when a statement was made it could be presented as fact, not hearsay or someone’s “spin” on what the real statement was. I posted a comment to that effect. I felt objectivity was most needed. Mainly because I feel that the Free Republic is the one place where we have found that people mostly try to deal with truth and facts, not as is happening on this case - not, as we have often criticized the media for “spinning” things, to suit their own agendas - and not a place where one’s desire to argue overrides another’s desire to approach things calmly and objectively and introduce their own thoughts.

These are just threads of discussion – with no or little impact on the case itself – and serve no purpose other than to allow us to air our thoughts and have an audience for our “say so.” Thus, all thoughts should be given courtesy and have the same right without challenge that is just for the sake of arguing or making another look foolish, or demeaning someone else’s thoughts or questions. Challenge should be to offer clarity or edification. I believe that is the objective of this forum, not nasty bickering as we see on so many other forums and that we all deplore.

But many seem so sure of their own suppositions in this case that they react as though only their thoughts are correct and must be believed, even though they have no more evidence or knowledge than any others who question them. This is not a case where anyone should be so insistent that one is right just because they want to be credited for being right when that person has no ability to know the truth. We all only know what we read or hear through the media, the Internet or another second-hand supply. Only Natalee and whoever took her (if that is what happened) know the truth.

I am not saying that Joran is innocent. No one knows, for certain, who is guilty. At this point all we really know for sure (because others have testified seeing them) is that he was in the casino, Natalee was at the casino and he and Natalee did talk, he did meet her at C & C’s, and they did leave together along with the Kalpoe brothers. How/even when they originally met, how they arranged to meet again at C & C’s, how and why she got into their car, where they went after, and what they did are still not certain and have been disputed even by Natalee’s classmates in various interviews, and even the suspects. We can only surmise - and just because we have “feelings” about things does not make them so.

A myriad of other things could have occurred. A number of other people could have been involved. Or none, and Natalee could be somewhere she wants to be. But in the more likely case that she was abducted, all the focus on a few suspects just might have given the real “perp/s” the opportunity to escape, undetected, with Natalee and now be somewhere far from the eye of the police and public.

Or, worse yet, all the focus on this might have caused a more horrible ending of Natalee’s life if abducted, than might have been the original intention. It just might have made her “too hot to handle” - to keep hidden or even delivered to another planned location where, possibly, she might have had the chance in the future to escape or be seen by others.

Yes, I am an advocate of media enlightenment and attention in such cases. It is through their efforts and The Amber Alert system (the best tool that has been introduced in ages) that many have been found. But, overdoing the focus ignores the possibility that attention on one suspect might play right into the hands of the true “perp” and while we are all focused in only one direction, opportunities for other things to occur, out of that spotlight are intensified.

We should never be so narrowly focused. We should never be led mainly by suppositions and “gut feelings” of a few, even family members who have been so devastated and are suffering beyond the average person’s comprehension. The media should always remain entirely objective and question outside the arena of emotional attention and “popular” theory. I believe many who are now so closely involved should have learned that lesson well with Jennifer Wilbanks. (Not to insinuate with any certainty that Natalee is a runaway.) However, during that case many willingly gave up their objectivity and succumbed to the desired beliefs of her family. The media and general acceptance of only one viewpoint led everyone astray and has resounded in both cases. Could it be occurring again?
2,020 posted on 07/08/2005 10:55:01 AM PDT by CitizenM


2,101 posted on 07/08/2005 3:05:14 PM PDT by Rippersnapper (Personal accountability doesn't begin and stop with the other person.)
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To: Palladin

Even Jug Twitty refered to them as boys in the last interview I saw him on the other night.


2,102 posted on 07/08/2005 3:20:50 PM PDT by pamlet
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To: ken5050
..leaving her screaming on the beach..she decides to go into the water..to clean herself...not necessarily implying suicidal..she swims..gets disoriented..panics..drowns..body washes out..marine life can dispose of anything rapidly..and the currents scatter the bones...It's just as plausible as anything else...

From what the boat guy said when they interviewed him, on the east side of the island things would just wash back onto shore, and on the west side where the hotel is you need to be about a mile out from the island for the body to be washed out to sea. IIRC

2,103 posted on 07/08/2005 3:54:58 PM PDT by Rippersnapper (Personal accountability doesn't begin and stop with the other person.)
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To: onyx
Thanks onyx. I missed it.

Mr. Spectre is on his lawn-mower trying to cut the grass before the rains come in. I cleaned up behind him with the blower...yes, I do get away from the puter, LOL.

I hope Greta shows Beth again tonight.

sw

2,104 posted on 07/08/2005 3:57:09 PM PDT by spectre (Spectre's wife)
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To: spectre

Shep's coming on again now. He might replay it.

Which rains are you anticipating? Cindy? Not Dennis, not yet anyway?


2,105 posted on 07/08/2005 3:59:18 PM PDT by onyx (Pope John Paul II - May 18, 1920 - April 2, 2005 = SANTO SUBITO!)
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To: hummingbird
did you write that poem? Its neat.

Thank you. It's a touchy topic, isn't it.
What a funny "fur"story about your great aunt.
I always thought everyone had dreams come true every now and then.
The darkness of the occult holds no interest for me, like tarot cards and spiritualism and such. Even astrology. I once lost a freelance commission for refusing to tell them my "sign." lol

It doesn't scare me, but it holds no allure. I have a relative who's quite into it, but it's more like me, me, me and she makes folks a bit uncomfortable thinking she "knows" them.

So many make wild statements which can't possibly be verified.

But I have great respect for highly intuitive, spiritually minded thinkers. I think most rational folks do.

2,106 posted on 07/08/2005 4:05:15 PM PDT by b9
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To: elli1
And, it should be noted that the fares are based per trip, not per passenger...and that indicates to me that they want to minimize the # of cars on the road.

Also, by fixing the fare on trip instead of passengers, that just goes to prove that it isn't about money. Otherwise the fares would be based on passenger and not the trip itself. In other words 3 people could split the fare. jmo

I think its more about trying to keep the island free of clutter and pollution. Shoot look at places like Makinac Island. They don't allow motorized vehicles at all. Just bicycles and horses.

2,107 posted on 07/08/2005 4:06:50 PM PDT by Rippersnapper (Personal accountability doesn't begin and stop with the other person.)
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To: Rippersnapper; CitizenM; All
Rip, what can we reply to, when we have been dressed down in the most eloquent, gentle and compassionate way possible?

None of us can read what Citizen M wrote, without a good look in the mirror to see the reflection of what she is describing.

Myself included.

I appreciate her remarks and know we will take them to heart. All of us on this thread are basically good people. Yes, we are :)

sw

2,108 posted on 07/08/2005 4:08:43 PM PDT by spectre (Spectre's wife)
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To: ken5050

T a x i s & L i m o s
You can wait an hour for a cab..unless you've made "arrangements" in advance..




Taxis

It is not customary in Aruba to hail cabs off the street by raising one's hand. In general one would phone for a taxi. Hotels, restaurants and stores are well-known to taxi-drivers so pickup from one of these designated spots is no problem at all.

http://visitaruba.com/travel/getaround/taxi.html

I think the bottom line is that if you know you want a taxi at a particular time, call and order one.


2,109 posted on 07/08/2005 4:14:11 PM PDT by Rippersnapper (Personal accountability doesn't begin and stop with the other person.)
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To: onyx
I've got Shep on.

Well, we WERE supposed to get some rain, but now I don't see any on the horizon, darn it. NOT from any Hurricane, we're in Arkansas. Land-locked..boo-hoooo.

sw

2,110 posted on 07/08/2005 4:15:02 PM PDT by spectre (Spectre's wife)
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To: ken5050

I'm not sure if I have heard or read what time it was when the first chaperone realized Natalee was missing. Do you happen to know?


2,111 posted on 07/08/2005 4:16:16 PM PDT by Rippersnapper (Personal accountability doesn't begin and stop with the other person.)
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To: spectre
Rip, they were discussing Natalee not staying in her own room on Riehl World. I don't know where it came from...but I have heard it as well. Can't source it out either.

Thanks. Yes, I remember it and I think we even discussed it on one of these very threads.

2,112 posted on 07/08/2005 4:18:15 PM PDT by Rippersnapper (Personal accountability doesn't begin and stop with the other person.)
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To: ken5050

You didn't need to apologize. All you said was that the three guys could claim consensual sex even if they raped her. That's true.


2,113 posted on 07/08/2005 4:29:39 PM PDT by Rippersnapper (Personal accountability doesn't begin and stop with the other person.)
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To: Li-Li

It may surprise some, but I am not tied to one theory about is going on down there. I have even considered the possibility that Joran is being held to reduce the chance that he may run his mouth.

I do not know. All I know for sure is Natalee is missing, probably dead, and the system never worked for her. In fact, it seemed to do everything it could to delay and contaminate a serious investigation.


2,114 posted on 07/08/2005 4:31:59 PM PDT by Protect the Bill of Rights
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To: Rippersnapper
Even Jossy Mansur says "rumor on the island"...blah, blah. My point, is that most of the information we are getting is just that, but Mansur seems to give it weight in Aruba...go figure.

sw

2,115 posted on 07/08/2005 4:33:19 PM PDT by spectre (Spectre's wife)
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To: onyx
Why? Because I did NOT read her comments. Thank you for answering my query.

That explains a lot. Thanks for the admission that you don't read all the posts.

2,116 posted on 07/08/2005 4:33:39 PM PDT by Rippersnapper (Personal accountability doesn't begin and stop with the other person.)
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To: maggiefluffs

Has anyone confirmed whether or not this is in fact Lorenzo? It creeps me out, because this is exactly the way I pictured him in my mind.

2,117 posted on 07/08/2005 4:40:50 PM PDT by Sunshine55 (Does Anita van der Sloot suffer from Carolyn Condit syndrome?)
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To: CitizenM

Thank you. A post like yours was LONG overdue.


2,118 posted on 07/08/2005 4:42:16 PM PDT by Sunshine55 (Does Anita van der Sloot suffer from Carolyn Condit syndrome?)
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To: hummingbird
I pray she did not suffer over what might have been a gift rather than sorcery or such.

It sounds like your Aunt used her gift in the right way. We can't always control these types of things. Sometimes they happen as 'visions' and sometimes as words placed on our tongues that we never intended to speak. Sometimes we can give ample warning to others and sometimes we can't. As long as it is used for good and not evil how can a gift from God be a bad thing?

1 Corinthians 12:8-10 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
8 to one is given a message of wisdom through the Spirit, to another, a message of knowledge by the same Spirit,
9 to another, faith by the same Spirit, to another, gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10 to another, the performing of miracles, to another, prophecy, to another, distinguishing between spirits, to another, different kinds of languages, to another, interpretation of languages.

2,119 posted on 07/08/2005 4:59:43 PM PDT by Rippersnapper (Personal accountability doesn't begin and stop with the other person.)
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To: Sunshine55

I'm not sure but I think that is Jamie, from Columbia. Sloot's 'best friend'.


2,120 posted on 07/08/2005 5:17:17 PM PDT by Rippersnapper (Personal accountability doesn't begin and stop with the other person.)
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