Posted on 06/19/2005 9:33:26 PM PDT by Lady In Blue
Pope set to return to traditional liturgy:-
VATICAN CITY | June 19, 2005 5:11:27 AM IST
Pope Benedict XVI wants to restore the traditional ceremonial Mass in St. Peter's Basilica, with Latin instead of the vernacular and Gregorian chants.
Vatican expert Sandro Magister reported in his weekly newsletter Saturday that the pope is expected to replace Archbishop Pietro Marini, his predecessor Pope John Paul II's master of liturgical ceremonies.
Whoever follows Marini will have orders to restore the traditional style and choreography of papal ceremonies in St. Peter's.
Out will go the international Masses so dear to Pope John Paul II's heart, with such innovations as Latin American and African rhythms and even dancing, multi-lingual readings and children in national costumes bringing gifts to the altar.
Pope Benedict wants to return to the Sistine Chapel choirs singing Gregorian chant and the church music of such composers as Claudio Monteverdi from the 17th century. He also wants to revive the Latin Mass.
Archbishop Marini always planned the ceremonies with television in mind, Magister said, and that emphasis will remain. A decade ago the Vatican set up a system for transmitting papal ceremonies world wide via multiple satellites.
(UPI)
I dunno. Seems to me that there are two greetings in latin: 'salve' and 'ave.' Just from the two prayers we know utilizing them, one could conclude that 'salve' is the greeting used by an inferior, (or to establish one's humility vis-a-vis the one who is greeted), whereas "ave" is used by one who is superior.
Thanks!
Ave, imperator! Morituri salutamus!
"Salve" is the imperative form of the verb "salvere", which means to be in good health, to be well, salvation, etc. The imperative form is the form of a command or request. Salve happens to be the singular imperative.
"Imperative is used to express a command"
http://www.dl.ket.org/latin1/review/faq-imperative.htm
So when we use "Salve" as an imperative of the verb "Salvere", to a normal person we are telling them "be well". But Blessed Mary is already quite well and cannot change. The only sensible translation has to do with salvation, it is a command to "Save!"
"Save, O Queen, our life, our sweetness, and our hope, save! To thee do we cry, etc." The prayer would make little sense if we were commanding "Be well, O Queen, etc." when we then go on to petition all manner of mercy and eternal life from her, i.e. "show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb Jesus".
The word "show" in the prayer, "ostende", is another imperative command, from the verb "ostendere", "to show, to offer". Similarly, the word "converte" is the imperative of "convertere", "to turn". If we all agree that literally is a command to Mary to "turn" and to "show", how is salve not a command to "save".
Yes it is a greeting, but dig deeper and ask yourself who and in what manner you are greeting!
Exactly the same meanings as the German "heil", from which "hail" comes from.
Heil Dir, Königin, Mutter der Barmherzigkeit,
Leben, Süssigkeit und unsere Hoffnung, heil Dir!
Zu Dir rufen wir verbannten Kinder Evas,
zu Dir seufzen wir, schluchzend und weinend
in diesem Tränental.
Ach, nun also, unsere Fürsprecherin:
jene deine barmherzigen Augen
wende uns zu,
und Jesum, die gesegnete Frucht Deines Leibes:
zeige uns nach dieser Verbannung!
O gütige, o weiche, o süsse Jungfrau Maria!
But where does that leave this?
Ave Regina cælorum!
Ave Domina angelorum.
Salve, Radix. Salve, Porta
Ex qua mundi Lux est orta.
Here's an interesting little tibdit--not spot-on the discussion, but it will be helpful:
http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4749
jrny, would you have anything to add to this discussion?
OK. I'm corrected. Research based on two pieces of evidence is insufficient.
Back to the reading-room.
Salve is the imperative of the verb "salvere", but "salvere" does NOT mean "to save". The verb "to save" is "salvare" (first conjugation, completely different verb because of one letter difference in the spelling), and its imperative is "Salva"
Salvare = to save
Salvere = to greet,hail, to be in good health, etc.
Thanks! I'd never heard of any distinction between "ave" and "salve" (HS Latin class: "Salvete, discipuli!" "Salve, soror mea!" but I didn't know if Sr. Sylverius was enough of an authority to cite), but -- as is so often the case -- not having heard of something is insufficient reason to think it doesn't exist.
Salvere = to greet,hail, to be in good health, etc.
Both words obviously have the same root origin, since the meaning of salvation is to be of good health or well in the soul.
http://www2.carthage.edu/outis/vocab3.html
Notes that "salutations, salvation" are derivatives of this verb.
Preventing "salvere" from retaining root meanings and thus forcing "salve" to have nothign to do with salvation is rather like taking the Bavarian greeting "Gruss Gott!" and claiming it means nothing more than "Hello!"
Would you really have us believe that "Salve Regina" meaning nothing more than "How are you doin' O Queen?"
Again, the question is not WHETHER it is a greeting, but rather, WHAT MANNER of greeting it is.
Without her intercession, no one is saved.
The English word "Hail" best translates "Salve". It's a respectful greeting (not a "hi, how are you doing?").
"Without her intercession, no one is saved."
You want to point me to a Catholic source on that?
If your theory were true, Ave Maria would be an atrocious thing to say.
Have you studied Latin? Oh, good.
The line, "O clemens, o pia, o dulcis Virgo María" is commonly translated, "O clement, O loving, O sweet virgin Mary."
I haven't studied Latin, but I was messing around with a dictionary, and it seemed to me that this could be translated, "Gentle, pious, kind Virgin Mary."
What do you think?
Have you studied Latin? Oh, good.
Yes, 4 years of formal instruction, and an additional 8 years of keeping up on it regularly.
Clemens - kind, gentle, or...clement
Pia - pious, prayerful
Dulcis - sweet (both in the sense of taste and in the sense of personality)
So, I think the standard translation is very good.
The standard translation has "loving" for "pia."
I guess I just have to get used to being the only curmudgeon in the world who things that translation is fit only for 14-year-old girls
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