Posted on 03/29/2005 8:58:34 AM PST by Long Cut
We, the Witness Protection Program For Freepers, aka the Wild Turkeys, aka the Coalition of the Sane, have through mutual discussion and rigourous thought, determined that:
1. The discussion threads regarding Terri Schiavo (hereafter referred to as "TS") have become too full of innuendo, rumormongering, hyperbole, hysteria, namecalling, paranoia, and general poor behavior to warrant participation.
2. Said threads have degenerated into "echo chambers", wherein the same, common thoughts are continually posted again and again, and the same old disreputable, unconfirmed and/or false urban myths are propagated.
3. Anyone who joins in said theads with alternative viewpoints to the most extreme posts are routinely driven away with slander, accusations, and vile namecalling.
4. No data or evidence contrary to the "prevailing opinions" are accepted, considered, or discussed; and in fact are rejected outright in most instances.
5. That the continued calls for armed insurrection, military or paramilitary involvement, impeachements of politicians and judges, and death threats are embarassing, stupid, shortsighted, doomed to failure, and contrary to most if not all conservative thought prior to this case, as well as damaging in the extreme to FR and the conservative movement as a whole.
6. That such emotional, hyperbolic, and propaganda-driven hysteria is in fact contrary to all conservatives USED to stand for.
7. That the holding up of swastika and other Nazi imagery towards the police and the Bushes, the use of children as political props, and the disruption of the peace at the Woodside Hospice can only reflect badly on conservatives in general, and should be discouraged.
8. That the pursuit of this issue to the exclusion of all others by the GOP has damaged, perhaps beyond repair, the pursuit of other important issues as well as the reputation of the GOP, FR, and conservatism.
The WPPFF is NOT of one mind as to the case of TS or its correct outcome. In fact, wide disagreement exists within our little group. However, we are united in our wish that reason and sanity be respected in the discussion, as well as the rights of all parties involved or participating. We wish to discuss this as adults and intellectuals, as conservatives and as FRiends, not as children screaming past each other on some playground of hysteria. We wish for facts and evidence to be provided, discussed reasonably, and considered fairly.
We reject all accusations of Naziism, "death cultism", or other slander as methods of debate. We reject the practice of "spamming" multiple threads, of posting unending vanities, and the posting of propaganda and calls for violence. We reject, in fact, all unseemly and childish behavior which has come to characterize this case on FR.
We DO invite others to come and reasonably discuss the issue. We have no problem with FReepers who wish to debate in a rational and fair manner, and with due respect for their fellow FReepers. We have NO problem with those whose views are formed by religion; however we reject "preaching" or "being beaten with a Bible" as legitemite debate tactics. Not all of us are Believers, and such tactics only cheapen the source.
If a FReeper finds this an acceptable meansd to discuss this and other issues, they are welcome to join in and participate. Those who find pleasure in attacks, flame-baiting, slander, stalking, and personal atacks will be ignored, and their egos will go unfed.
We assume this thread to be a zone of sanity in an overheated atmosphere. Thus, a general amnesty is in effect. If posters conduct themselves within the guidlines above, we will be happy to discuss and debate with you. If a poster wishes to apologize for past slips of the tongue, or for possible "over-the-top" statements to another, it will be graciously accepted, and your company welcome.
Please bring a sense of humor; we feel that too many have been taking themselves too seriously lately.
Let the discussion begin!
Signed,
The WPPFF, aka The Wild Turkeys, aka the Coalition of the Sane.
"Nearly 350 posts and nobody wants to discuss the merits of euthanasia. Still waiting...
"
That is another issue. Why don't you go find a case of euthanasia in the news, post it, and we'll all come and discuss it.
Oregon's a good place to start looking.
Just checking in while my hubby is at work, and giving my feet a rest after 2 days of walking the Strip(Las Vegas). I see things haven't changed since I last looked.
Thanks for the ping, Howlin. Thanks, also, to Long Cut for starting this thread.
New WPPFF member
If he had that authority, why did he need hearsay evidence to establish her wishes?
Skip the insults and try answering the question.
I find it unethical for a lawyer to be giving campaign contributions to a judge before whom he is practicing, but hey, that's just my opinion, and the case I laid out is not dependent on this.
With regards to the denial of a stay on the federal level, the dissenting of Judge Wilson says it a lot more thoroughly than can I, but I can paraphrase by saying the law demanded a de novo review; the failure to issue a stay made a de novo review; therefore the judiciary deliberately flouted the clear intent of the law. If they did it on a technicality (a stay not being mandated) it doesn't make it any less a nullification of the clear intent of the legislature.
Psst. This IS a case of euthanasia in the news.
Really, who? Please provide evidence to support your allegations.
"Are all diabled persons "living death", as you call it? "
"diabled" -- I like that one. Roots which tie to the devil, old Diablo.
So, I assume you mean a bedeviled person by that sentence. Well, I don't believe in the existence of any devils or any other supernatural entity, so I guess there aren't any such people.
Sorry I'm late to the party, but well said, Chad.
Well, it's gotten a little better... the logical rational sane crew has produced one poster who wants to discuss the merits of the legal arguments and is doing so with civility and rigor.
Sadly, 500+ posts into this I STILL haven't a taker on discussing the T-4 program and the simliarities in this case.
Well since its a 2-1 decision yes.
After all, how would you view it, if in interpreting the law as passed by Congress, in an unprecednted manner, they chose to rely on Senator Levin, for advice on intent?
Odd, how people will run to embrace one of the most notorious $cumb@g$ in the Senate, when the mood suits them.
The fact remains that the only thing Whittemore - and hence the 11th - was empowered to do is examine Federal constitutional violations. In that context, it is a very weak position for Gibbs to simply argue that Terri is not PVS or that there are differing medical opinions. It is necessary to establish that these alleged facts form the basis for a violation of Federal constitutional rights.
If there was a Catch-22 in the law, i.e. a de novo hearing can only have meaning if a stay is entered - then this Catch-22 was created KNOWINGLY by Congress. They talked about it on the floor.
I was in the garage working and listening to Rush. I have listened to him, on and off, since the late 1980's and I do believe he is losing it.
He was spouting off in a comparison of the unions asking Congress to step in and help them stop Walmart advertizement, or some shuch rot, and with Congress getting involved with Terri Schiavo.
The shrink couches are plumb full up. ;)
Thanks for the ping.
Hearsay evidence is not necessarily faulty or unreliable. In fact, it often is 100 percent accurate. I don't presume to know what Terri's wishes were. It's entirely possible her husband lied, but it's also possible he was telling the truth when he recounted what she said. (Psst: recounting what another person said is "hearsay"). I wasn't there, and neither were you.
Thanks. :)
Odd how you would ignore that Senator Frist was quoted saying the same thing as Levin.
For whatever reason, I don't listen to Rush anymore. Can't say why. Just don't.
I think I actually preferred listening to Rush when he was doped to the gills... ;0)
Good questionaire.
___ Do you believe feeding tubes should ever be removed?
There are times it is appropriate.
___ If no, does that include even when the patient has stated their wishes?
A person has the right to refuse treatment. I might think they are doing it too early, and might try to counsel them otherwise, but ultimately it's between them and God. There are times when it is absolutely the right choice, like any refusal of treatment at the end of life. Please don't put me on a ventillator if I am dying from ALS
___ Do you object to a feeding tube being removed Terri because it is not definite that she is PVS?
I don't know for sure, because I haven't gotten a chance to go through all the back and forth...as a general rule of thumb, I don't like doing this healthy, if damaged bodies because of my religous beliefs. I admit it's a moral stance, and if you have a directive saying otherwise, I will not block your right to choose.
___ Do you object to a feeding tube being removed from Terri because you do not believe the courts established that her wishes were suffiently know in this matter?
I believe that the courts went though and did what was legally correct - chosing the word of the husband to help them make a decision. I am not for sure if this really was her wishes, but I also think Michael is the one most responsible under the law to make live or death decisions for Terri, by virtue of his being married to her.
___ Do you object to a feeding tube being removed from Terri because you don't trust her husband?
He's been demonized so much that I wouldn't trust my judgement of what I thought about him. I suspect he is hardheaded and determined by nature.
___ Would you like to be in Terri's condition for 15 years?
If I was in Terri's condition, and not in pain from bedsores, and not in pain I probably wouldn't mind. Life is frequently sweet wherever you are on its spectrum if you are not in pain and have stimulus appropriate to your condition.
I would not choose to be in Terri's condition if I didn't have to be there.
___ Do you want Congress to supercede your wishes if you have a Living Will?
Not at all.
I got your back, Redman. ; )
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