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Confederate States Of America (2005)
Yahoo Movies ^ | 12/31/04 | Me

Posted on 12/31/2004 2:21:30 PM PST by Caipirabob

What's wrong about this photo? Or if you're a true-born Southerner, what's right?

While scanning through some of the up and coming movies in 2005, I ran across this intriguing title; "CSA: Confederate States of America (2005)". It's an "alternate universe" take on what would the country be like had the South won the civil war.

Stars with bars:

Suffice to say anything from Hollywood on this topic is sure to to bring about all sorts of controversial ideas and discussions. I was surprised that they are approaching such subject matter, and I'm more than a little interested.

Some things are better left dead in the past:

For myself, I was more than pleased with the homage paid to General "Stonewall" Jackson in Turner's "Gods and Generals". Like him, I should have like to believe that the South would have been compelled to end slavery out of Christian dignity rather than continue to enslave their brothers of the freedom that belong equally to all men. Obviously it didn't happen that way.

Would I fight for a South that believed in Slavery today? I have to ask first, would I know any better back then? I don't know. I honestly don't know. My pride for my South and my heritage would have most likely doomed me as it did so many others. I won't skirt the issue, in all likelyhood, slavery may have been an afterthought. Had they been the staple of what I considered property, I possibly would have already been past the point of moral struggle on the point and preparing to kill Northern invaders.

Compelling story or KKK wet dream?:

So what do I feel about this? The photo above nearly brings me to tears, as I highly respect Abraham Lincoln. I don't care if they kick me out of the South. Imagine if GW was in prayer over what to do about a seperatist leftist California. That's how I imagine Lincoln. A great man. I wonder sometimes what my family would have been like today. How many more of us would there be? Would we have held onto the property and prosperity that sustained them before the war? Would I have double the amount of family in the area? How many would I have had to cook for last week for Christmas? Would I have needed to make more "Pate De Fois Gras"?

Well, dunno about that either. Depending on what the previous for this movie are like, I may or may not see it. If they portray it as the United Confederacy of the KKK I won't be attending.

This generation of our clan speaks some 5 languages in addition to English, those being of recent immigrants to this nation. All of them are good Americans. I believe the south would have succombed to the same forces that affected the North. Immigration, war, economics and other huma forces that have changed the map of the world since history began.

Whatever. At least in this alternate universe, it's safe for me to believe that we would have grown to be the benevolent and humane South that I know it is in my heart. I can believe that slavery would have died shortly before or after that lost victory. I can believe that Southern gentlemen would have served the world as the model for behavior. In my alternate universe, it's ok that Spock has a beard. It's my alternate universe after all, it can be what I want.

At any rate, I lived up North for many years. Wonderful people and difficult people. I will always sing their praises as a land full of beautiful Italian girls, maple syrup and Birch beer. My uncle ribbed us once before we left on how we were going up North to live "with all the Yankees". Afterwards I always refered to him as royalty. He is, really. He's "King of the Rednecks". I suppose I'm his court jester.

So what do you think of this movie?


TOPICS: Culture/Society; History; Miscellaneous; Political Humor/Cartoons; TV/Movies
KEYWORDS: alternateuniverse; ancientnews; battleflag; brucecatton; chrisshaysfanclub; confederacy; confederate; confederates; confederatetraitors; confedernuts; crackers; csa; deepsouthrabble; dixie; dixiewankers; gaylincolnidolaters; gayrebellovers; geoffreyperret; goodbyebushpilot; goodbyecssflorida; keywordsecessionist; letsplaywhatif; liberalyankees; lincoln; lincolnidolaters; mrspockhasabeard; neoconfederates; neorebels; racists; rebelgraveyard; rednecks; shelbyfoote; solongnolu; southernbigots; southernhonor; stainlessbanner; starsandbars; usaalltheway; yankeenuts; yankeeracists; yankscantspell; yankshatecatolics; yeeeeehaaaaaaa; youallwaitandseeyank; youlostgetoverit; youwishyank
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To: fortheDeclaration
[font color="blue">[ftD] Stop the word games, Washington left it in his will that they be freed, as long as Martha was not hurt by freeing them.

Bull----.

I posted the Last Will and Testament. Read it again.

2,241 posted on 02/08/2005 5:11:33 AM PST by nolu chan
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To: fortheDeclaration
[nc] The Washington's were among the wealthiest families in America.

[ftD] And much of that wealth was tied up in slaves!

The Washington's were like the modern-day Rockefellers.

You would have more success attempting to argue that Clinton did not have sex with that woman.

2,242 posted on 02/08/2005 5:14:39 AM PST by nolu chan
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To: M. Espinola
....slavery would have not only continued, but would have greatly expanded westward and northward.

Hmmm, only a few blacks, slave or free, in several territories that had been open for decades. Expansion West? I don't think so. Expansion in Northern states, with their laws to prevent emmigration of blacks into the states? I don't think so.

2,243 posted on 02/08/2005 5:17:07 AM PST by 4CJ (Laissez les bon FReeps rouler - Quo Gladius de Veritas - Deo vindice!)
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To: nolu chan
Why do you keep yacking about Clay?

What did Stephens say in the speech regarding slavery and the Constitution?

Nothing you have posted removes what he said-that the Founders saw it as an evil, that it was the primary cause of the war and the Confederacy saw slavery as a good.

Now, when you can change any one of those clear statements by Stephens, let me know.

If not, then stop wasting my time by trying to prove that the Founders of the United States believed in the same thing the Founders of the confederacy believed in.

2,244 posted on 02/08/2005 5:17:23 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: nolu chan
nc] The Washington's were among the wealthiest families in America. [ftD] And much of that wealth was tied up in slaves! The Washington's were like the modern-day Rockefellers. You would have more success attempting to argue that Clinton did not have sex with that woman.

Washington's wealth was in land and that land had to be farmed.

Hence, the value of slaves.

2,245 posted on 02/08/2005 5:18:28 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: Non-Sequitur
Thus triggering your racial confusion, which results in you calling people 'Boy'.

Ah, yes, the imputation of personal racism again -- more ad hominem. But then, since you practice it on an entire people, an entire country, how could you possibly scruple at smearing a mere person?

What a jerk.

2,246 posted on 02/08/2005 5:28:53 AM PST by lentulusgracchus ("Whatever." -- sinkspur)
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To: nolu chan
Wow. Good find on Lincoln and Clay. Abe's stovepipe's on fire. Maybe he and Squishbob Liarpants can put each other out.
2,247 posted on 02/08/2005 5:33:08 AM PST by lentulusgracchus ("Whatever." -- sinkspur)
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To: fortheDeclaration
[nc] Actions speak louder than words -- just like a stain on a blue dress.

[ftD] Oh, did Clinton preach against adultery, I don't remember that sermon.

Jefferson advertised to have runaway slaves hunted down for the reward he offered in his advertisement.

Clinton, in his best imitation of a lying Lincoln, looked into to camera and told the American people, "I did not have sex with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky." Then, along came that devil of a blue dress.

Hillary went on to write her new book, "It Takes a Village to Satisfy My Husband."

PRESIDENT CLINTON'S TESTIMONY

I did not do it in a car
I did not do it in a bar
I did not do it in the dark
I did not do it in the park
I did not do it on a date
I did not ever fornicate

I did not do it at a dance
I did not do it in her pants
I did not get beyond first base
I did not do it in her face
I never did it in a bed
If you think that, you've been misled.

I did not do it with a groan
I did not do it on the phone
I did not cause her dress to stain
I never boinked Saddam Hussein
I did not do it with a whip
I never fondled Linda Tripp
I never acted really silly
With volunteers like Kathleen Willey

There was one time, with Margaret Thatcher
I chased her 'round, but
could not catch her.

No kinky stuff, not on your life
I wouldn't, even with my wife.

And Gennifer Flowers' tale of woes
Was paid for by my right-wing foes
And Paula Jones and those State Troopers
Are just a bunch of party poopers

I did not ask my friends to lie
I did not hang them out to dry
I did not do it last November
But if I did, I don't remember

I did not do it in the hall
I could have, but I don't recall.
I never did it in my study
I never did it with my dog, Buddy
I never did it to Sox, the cat
I might have-once-with Arafat.

I never did it in a hurry
I never groped Ms. Betty Currie
There was no sex at Arlington
There was no sex on Air Force One
I might have copped a little feel
And then endeavored to conceal

But never did these things so lewd
At least, not ever in the nude.
These things to which I have confessed
They do not count, if we stayed dressed.

It never happened with cigar
I never dated Mrs. Starr
I did not know this little sin
Would be retold on CNN

I broke some rules my Mama taught me
I tried to hide, but now you've caught me.
But I implore, I do beseech,
Do not condemn, do not impeach.

I might have got a little tail,
But never, never did I inhale.

2,248 posted on 02/08/2005 5:33:22 AM PST by nolu chan
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To: fortheDeclaration
Why do you keep yacking about Clay?

Because that was what was in my post to which you responded. I will be glad to refresh your memory regarding my earlier posts, and the issue at hand, as many times as you attempt to avoid it and change the subject.

Lincoln's speech was praising Henry Clay. See my #2110 to fortheDeclaration to remind you that it specifically named and referred to Abraham Lincoln, Henry Clay and Thomas Jefferson. The Henry Clay being praised by Abraham Lincoln did not free his slaves. Neither did Jefferson. They objected to slavery "in principle" but never freed their slaves. States which passed laws banning slavery did not free their slaves either. They declared the children of slaves would be free at a certain age or at some date certain. The slaves were not freed -- the owners were given economic impetus to sell their slaves South where they could obtain full value. The Northern slaves were not freed -- the North was ethnically cleansed of its undesired Black presence. When the WBTS broke out there were more free Blacks in the South than in the North. The North did not free slaves, they moved them South and then passed laws and/or amendments to their state constitutions to keep Blacks out.

Now, to return to Lincoln, Henry Clay, and Thomas Jefferson and my #2110.

[fortheDeclaration] Must be nice to continue to live a world of self-delusion

As in a world where folks such as Henry Clay are praised to the heavens for mouthing that they are against slavery "on principle." In practice, he and his ilk kept as many slaves as possible and never let them go. What was important, per Lincoln and his apologists, is that his mentor said he opposed slavery "on principle."

LINK

Source: Alexander Stephens, Cornerstone Speech, Savannah; Georgia, March 21, 1861

The Cornerstone Speech was delivered extemporaneously by Vice President Alexander H. Stephens, and no official printed version exists. The text below was taken from a newspaper article in the Savannah Republican, as reprinted in Henry Cleveland, Alexander H. Stephens, in Public and Private: With Letters and Speeches, before, during, and since the War, Philadelphia, 1886, pp. 717-729.

[Extract]

But not to be tedious in enumerating the numerous changes for the better, allow me to allude to one other -- though last, not least. The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution -- African slavery as it exists amongst us -- the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the "storm came and the wind blew."

SOURCE: Lerone Bennett, Jr., Forced Into Glory, 215-17.

The first address, a eulogy delivered in the Hall of Representatives in springfield, Illinois, on Tuesday, July 6, 1852, in honor of his mentor, Henry Clay, brought together the two dominant themes of his life, the grandeur of "the white man's" Declaration of Independence and the need to defent it and keep it White and pure by banishing all Blacks -- be deportation, colonization, emigration -- from what he considered a White Eden.

Lincoln inherited both ideas from Clay and Thomas Jefferson, both of whom said the words all men et cetera with great eloquence and kept their slaves and never stopped apologizing and asking others to repent before it was too late by sending their slaves -- not the capital derived from thesalves -- "back" to Africa. Lincoln was especially indebted to Clay who, he said, taught him all he knew about slavery. I think the word all is too strong, but that's the word Lincoln used, and he was in a position to know what he was talking about. Did he not tell a crowd of White people at Carlinville, "I can express all my views on the slavery question by quotations from Henry Clay. Doesn't this look like we are akin?" (CW 3:79)

--------

How could a slaveholder lead a movement in favor of the idea that all men are created equal?

Lincoln anticipated that question, saying that although Clay owned slaves he "ever was, on principle and in feeling, opposed to slavery" (CW 2:130). The key words here are on principle and in feeling. Everybody knew that Clay was one of the biggest slaveowners in Kentucky and the major architect of the series of compromises that had saved slavery in American, perhaps forever. Lincoln's fellow Illinoisan, H. Ford Douglass, said that Clay "did as much to perpetuate Negro slavery in this country as any other man who has ever lived" (Zilversmit 65). That elementary fact, known to everybody and most especially to Clay's slaves, who slaved and bled and died not in principle but in fact, was unimportant in the Lincoln ledger. What was important, Lincoln said, was that Clay was opposed to slavery "on principle."


2,249 posted on 02/08/2005 5:35:31 AM PST by nolu chan
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To: fortheDeclaration
[ftD #2208] Freeing a slave was difficult because of the cost involved, and it was made more difficult as slavery began to be seen as a moral good.

[nc #2222] The Washington's were among the wealthiest families in America.

[ftD #2245] Washington's wealth was in land and that land had to be farmed. Hence, the value of slaves.

Poor George couldn't afford to free his slaves. If one of the richest men in America, and some say he was the richest, could not afford to free his slaves, one could only wonder who could afford to free their slaves. I know. It must have been poor Southerners who were too poor to own a slave in the first place. And, of course, Roger B. Taney who earned $1,500 a year as Attorney General.

LINK

George Washington

In the name of God, Amen.

I GEORGE WASHINGTON of Mount Vernon, a citizen of the United States, and lately President of the same, do make, ordain and declare this Instrument; which is written with my own hand and every page thereof subscribed with my name, to be my last Will & Testament, revoking all others.

Imprimus. All my debts, of which there are but few, and none of magnitude, are to be punctually and speedily paid; and the Legacies hereinafter bequeathed, are to be discharged as soon as circumstances will permit, and in the manner directed.

Item To my dearly beloved wife Martha Washington I give and bequeath the use, profit and benefit of my whole Estate, real and personal, for the term of her natural life; except such parts thereof as are specially disposed of hereafter: My improved lot in the Town of Alexandria, situated on Pitt and Cameron Streets, I give to her & her heirs forever; as I also do my household and kitchen furniture of every sort and kind, with the liquors and groceries which may be on hand at the time of my decease; to be used and disposed of as she may think proper.

Item Upon the decease of my wife, it is my Will and desire, that all the slaves which I hold in my own right, shall receive their freedom. To emancipate them during her life, would, tho' earnestly wished by me, be attended with such insuperable difficulties on account of their intermixture by Marriages with the Dower Negroes, as to excite the most painful sensations, if not disagreeable consequences from the latter, while both descriptions are in the occupancy or the same Proprietor; it not being in my power, under the tenure by which the Dower Negroes are held, to manumit them. And whereas among those who will receive freedom according to this devise, there may be some, who from old age or bodily infirmities, and others who on account of their infancy, that will be unable to support themselves; it is my Will and desire that all who come under the first and second description shall be comfortably clothed and fed by my heirs while they live; and that such of the latter description as have no parents living, or if living are unable, or unwilling to provide for them, shall be bound by the Court until they shall arrive at the age of twenty-five years; and in cases where no record can be produced, whereby their ages can be ascertained, the Judgment of the Court, upon its own view of the subject, shall be adequate & final. The negroes thus bound, are (by their Masters or Mistresses), to be taught to read and write; & to be brought up to some useful occupation, agreeably to the Laws of the Commonwealth of Virginia, providing for the support of orphan & other poor Children. And I do hereby expressly forbid the sale, or transportation out of the said Commonwealth of any Slave I may die possessed of, under any pretence whatsoever. And I do moreover most pointedly, and most solemnly enjoin it upon my Executors hereafter named, or the survivors of them, to see that this clause respecting Slaves, and every part thereof be religiously fulfilled at the Epoch at which it is directed to take place; without evasion, neglect or delay, after the Crops which may then be on the ground are harvested, particularly as it respects the aged & infirm; Seeing that a regular & permanent fund be established for their support so long as there are subjects requiring it; not trusting to the uncertain provision to be made by individuals. And to my Mulatto man, William (calling himself William Lee) I give immediate freedom; or if he should prefer it (on account of the accidents which have befallen him, and which have rendered him incapable of walking or of any active employment.) to remain in the situation he now is, it shall be optional in him to do so: In either case however, I allow him an annuity of thirty dollars during his natural life, which shall be independent of the victuals and clothes he has been accustomed to receive, if he chooses the last alternative: but in full with his freedom, if he prefers the first: & this I give him as a testimony of my sense of his attachment to me, and for his faithful services during the Revolutionary War.

Item To the Trustees (Governors, or by whatsoever name they may be designated) of the Academy in the Town of Alexandria, I give and bequeath, in Trust, four thousand dollars, or in other words twenty of the shares which I hold in the Bank of Alexandria, towards the support of a Free school, established at, and annexed to, the said Academy; for the purpose of educating such orphan children, or the children of such other poor & indigent persons as are unable to accomplish it with their own means: and who, in the judgment of the Trustees of the said Seminary, are best entitled to the benefit of this donation. The aforesaid twenty shares I give and bequeath in perpetuity: the dividends only of which are to be drawn for, and applied by the said Trustees for the time being, for the uses above mentioned; the stock to remain entire and untouched; unless indications of a failure of the said Bank should be apparent, or discontinuance thereof should render a removal of this fund necessary; in either of these cases, the amount of the Stock here devised, is to be vested in some other Bank or public Institution, whereby the interest may with regularity & certainty be drawn, and applied as above. And to prevent misconception, my meaning is, and is hereby declared to be, that these twenty shares are in lieu of, and not in addition to, the thousand pounds given by a missive letter some years ago; in consequence whereof an annuity of fifty pounds has since been paid towards the support of this Institution.

Item Whereas by a law of the Commonwealth of Virginia, enacted in the year 1785, the Legislature thereof was pleased (as an evidence of Its approbation of the services I had rendered the public during the Revolution; & partly, I believe, in consideration of my having suggested the vast advantages which the community would derive from the extension of its Inland Navigation, under Legislative patronage) to present me with one hundred shares of one hundred dollars each, in the incorporated company established for the purpose of extending the navigation of James River from tide water to the Mountains: and also with fifty shares of one hundred pounds Sterling each, in the Corporation of another company, likewise established for the similar purpose of opening the Navigation of the River Potomac from tide water to Fort Cumberland; the acceptance of which, although the offer was highly honorable and grateful to my feelings, was refused, as inconsistent with a principle which I had adopted, and had never departed from, namely, not to receive pecuniary compensation for any services I could render my Country in its arduous struggle with Great Britain, for its Rights: and because I had evaded similar propositions from other States in the Union; adding to this refusal, however, an intimation that, if it should be the pleasure of the Legislature, to permit me to appropriate the said shares to public uses, I would receive them on those terms with due sensibility; and this it having consented to, in flattering terms, as will appear by a subsequent Law, and sundry resolutions, in the most ample and honorable manner, I proceed after this recital, for the more correct understanding of the case, to declare:

That as it has always been a source of serious regret with me, to see the youth of these United States sent to foreign Countries for the purpose of Education, often before their minds were formed, or they had imbibed any adequate ideas of the happiness of their own; contracting, too frequently, not only habits of dissipation and extravagance, but principles unfriendly to Republican Government & to the true and genuine liberties of mankind; which, thereafter are rarely overcome. For these reasons, it has been my ardent wish, to see a plan devised on a liberal scale which would have a tendency to sprd. systematic ides through all parts of this rising Empire, thereby to do away local attachments and State prejudices, as far as the nature of things would, or indeed ought to admit, from our National Councils. Looking anxiously forward to the accomplishment of so desirable an object as this is (in my estimation) my mind has not been able to contemplate any plan more likely to effect the measure than the establishment of a UNIVERSITY in a central part of the United States, to which the youth of fortune and talents from all parts thereof might be sent for the completion of their Education, in all the branches of polite literature in arts and Sciences, in acquiring knowledge in the principles of politics & good government; and (as a matter of infinite Importance in my judgment) by associating with each other, and forming friendships in Juvenile years, be enabled to free themselves in a proper degree from those local prejudices and habitual Jealousies which have just been mentioned; and which, when carried to excess, are never failing sources of disquietude to the Public mind, & pregnant of mischievous consequences to this Country: Under these impressions, so fully dilated.

LINK

Item I give and bequeath in perpetuity the fifty shares which I hold in the Potomac Company (under the aforesaid Acts of the Legislature of Virginia) towards the endowment of a UNIVERSITY to be established within the limits of the District of Columbia, under the auspices of the General Government, if that Government should incline to extend a fostering hand towards it; and until such Seminary is established, and the funds arising on these shares shall be required for its support, my further Will & desire is that the profit accruing therefrom shall, whenever the dividends are made, be laid out in purchasing Stock in the Bank of Columbia or some other Bank, at the discretion of my Executors; or by the Treasurer of the United States for the time being under the direction of Congress; provided that honourable body should Patronize the measure, and the Dividends proceeding from the purchase of such stock is to be vested in more stock, and so on, until a sum adequate to the accomplishment of the object is obtained, of which I have not the smallest doubt, before many years passes away; even if no aid or encouraged is given by Legislative authority, or from any other source

Item The hundred shares which I held in the James River Company, I have given, and now confirm in perpetuity to, and for the use and benefit of Liberty-Hall Academy, in the County of Rockbridge, in the Commonwealth of Virga.

Item I release exonerate and discharge, the Estate of my deceased brother Samuel Washington, from the payment of the money which is due to me for the land I sold to Philip Pendleton (lying in the County of Berkeley) who assigned the same to him the said Samuel; who, by agreement was to pay me therefor. And whereas by some contract (the purport of which was never communicated to me.) between the said Samuel and his son Thornton Washington, the latter became possessed of the aforesaid Land, without any conveyance having passed from me, either to the said Pendleton, the said Samuel, or the said Thornton, and without any consideration having been made, by which neglect neither the legal nor equitable title has been alienated; it rests therefore with me to declare my intentions concerning the Premises; and these are to give and bequeath the said land to whomsoever the said Thornton Washington (who is also dead) devised the same; or to his heirs forever, if he died Intestate: Exonerating the estate of the said Thornton, equally with that of the said Samuel from payment of the purchase money; which, with Interest, agreeably to the original contract with the said Pendleton, would amount to more than a thousand pounds. And whereas, two other sons of my said deceased brother Samuel, namely, George Steptoe Washington & Lawrence Augustine Washington, were, by the decease of those to whose care they were committed, brought under my protection, and in conseqe. have occasioned advances on my part for their education at College, and other Schools, for their board, cloathing & other incidental expenses, to the amount of near five thousand dollars over and above the Sums furnished by their Estate, wch. sum may be inconvenient for them, or their father's Estate to refund. I do for these reasons acquit them, and the said estate, from the payment thereof. My intention being, that all accounts between them & me, and their father's estate and me, shall stand balanced.

Item The balance due to me from the Estate of Bartholomew Dandridge deceased (my wife's brother) and which amounted on the first day of October 1795 to four hundred and twenty-five pounds (as will appear by an account rendered by his deceased son John Dandridge, who was the acting Exr. of his father's Will,) I release and acquit from the payment thereof. And the negroes, (then thirty-three in number) formerly belonging to the said estate, who were taken in execution, sold, and purchased in on my account in the year and ever since have remained in the possession, and to the use of Mary, Widow of the said Bartholomew Dandridge, with their increase, it is my will and desire shall continue, and be in her possession, without paying hire, or making compensation for the same for the time past or to come, during her natural life; at the expiration of which, I direct that all of them who are forty years old & upwards, shall receive their freedom; all under that age and above sixteen, shall serve seven years and no longer; and all under sixteen years shall serve until they are twenty-five years of age, & then be free. And to avoid disputes respecting the ages of any of these Negros, they are to be taken to the Court of the County in which they reside, and the Judgment thereof, in this relation, shall be final; and a record thereof made; which may be adduced as evidence at any time thereafter, if disputes should arise concerning the same. And I further direct, that the heirs of the said Bartholomew Dandridge shall, equally, share the benefits arising from the Services of the said negros according to the tenor of this devise, upon the decease of their Mother.

Item If Charles Carter who intermarried with my niece Betty Lewis is not sufficiently secured in the title to the lots he had of me in the town of Fredericksburgh, it is my Will and desire that my Executors shall make such conveyances of them as the law may require to render it perfect.

Item To my nephew William Augustine Washington and his heirs (if he should conceive them to be objects worth prosecuting) and to his heirs, a lot in the town of Manchester (opposite to Richmond) No. 265 drawn on my sole account, and also the tenth of one or two, hundred acre lots, and two or three half acre lots in the City, and vicinity of Richmond, drawn in partnership with nine others, all in the lottery of the deceased William Byrd are given; as is also a lot which I purchased of John Hood conveyed by William Willie and Samuel Gordon, Trustees of the said John Hood, numbered 139 in the Town of Edinburgh, in the County of Prince George, State of Virginia.

Item To my nephew Bushrod Washington, I give and bequeath all the Papers in my possession which relate to my Civil and Military Administration of the affairs of this Country; I leave to him also such of my private papers as are worth preserving; and at the decease of my wife, and before; if she is not inclined to retain them, I give and bequeath my Library of books, and pamphlets of every kind.

Item Having sold Lands which I possessed in the State of Pennsylvania, and part of a tract held in equal right with George Clinton, late Governor of New York, in the State of New York; my share of land, and interest, in the Great Dismal Swamp, and a tract of land which I owned in the County of Gloucester; withholding the legal titles thereto, until the consideration money should be paid. And having moreover leased, and conditionally sold (as will appear by the tenor of the said leases) all my lands upon the Great Kanhawa, and a tract of land upon Difficult Run, in the County of Loudon, it is my Will and direction, that whensoever the Contracts are fully, and respectively complied with, according to the spirit, true intent, and meaning thereof, on the part of the purchasers, their heirs or Assigns, that then, and in that case, Conveyances are to be made, agreeably to the terms of the said Contracts; & the money arising therefrom, when paid, to be vested in Bank stock; the dividends whereof, as of that also wch. is already vested therein, is to inure to my said Wife during her life; but the Stock itself is to remain, and be subject to the general distribution, hereafter directed.

Item To the Earl of Buchan I recommit "the Box made of the Oak that sheltered the Great Sir William Wallace after the battle of Falkirk" presented to me by his Lordship, in terms too flattering for me to repeat, with a request "to pass it, on the event of my decease, to the man in my country, who should appear to merit it best, upon the same conditions that have induced him to send it to me." Whether easy, or not, to select the man who might comport with his Lordships opinion in this respect, is not for me to say; but conceiving that no disposition of this valuable curiosity can be more eligible than the recommitment of it to his own Cabinet, agreeably to the original design of the Goldsmith Company of Edinburgh, who presented it to him, and at his request, consented that it should be transferred to me; I do give and bequeath the same to his Lordship, and in case of his decease, to his heir with my grateful thanks for the distinguished honor of presenting it to me; and more especially for the favourable sentiments with which he accompanied it.

Item To my brother Charles Washington I give and bequeath the gold-headed Cane left me by Doctr Franklin in his Will. I add nothing to it, because of the ample provision I have made for his Issue. To the acquaintances and friends of my Juvenile years, Lawrence Washington & Robert Washington, of Chotanck, I give my other two gold-headed canes, having my arms engraved on them; and to each (as they will be useful where they live,) I leave one of the spy glasses which constituted part of my equipage during the late War. To my compatriot in arms and old and intimate friend Doctor Craik, I give my Bureau (or as the Cabinet Makers call it, Tambour Secretary,) and the circular chair, an appendage of my Study. To Doctor David Stuart, I give my large shaving and dressing table, and my Telescope. To the Reverend, now Bryan, Lord Fairfax, I give a Bible in three large folio volumes, with notes, presented to me by the Right Reverend Thomas Wilson, Bishop of Sodor and Man. To General de la Fayette, I give a pair of finely wrought steel pistols, taken from the enemy in the Revolutionary war. To my Sisters in law Hannah Washington and Mildred Washington; to my friends Eleanor Stuart, Hannah Washington of Fairfield, and Elizabeth Washington of Hayfield, I give, each, a mourning Ring of the value of one hundred dollars. These bequests are not made for the intrinsic value of them, but as mementos of my esteem and regard. To Tobias Lear, I give the use of the farm which he now holds, in virtue of a Lease from me to him, and his deceased wife (for and during their natural lives) free from Rent during his life; at the expiration of which, it is to be disposed as is hereinafter directed. To Sally B. Haynie (a distant relation of mine) I give and bequeath three hundred dollars. To Sarah Green daughter of the deceased Thomas Bishop, & to Ann Walker, daughter of Jno. Alton, also deceased, I give, each one hundred dollars, in consideration of the attachment of their fathers to me, each of whom having lived nearly forty years in my family. To each of my Nephews, William Augustine Washington, George Lewis, George Steptoe Washington, Bushrod Washington, & Samuel Washington, I give one of the Swords or Cutteaux of which I may die possessed; and they are to chuse in the order they are named. These swords are accompanied with an injunction not to unsheath them for the purpose of shedding blood, except it be for self defence, or in defence of their Country & its rights; and in the latter case, to keep them unsheathed, and prefer falling with them in their hands, to the relinquishment thereof.

LINK

AND NOW

Having gone through these specific devises, with explanations for the more correct understanding of the meaning and design of them, I proceed to the distribution of the more important parts of my Estate, in manner following:

First To my nephew Bushrod Washington and his heirs (partly in consideration of an intimation to his deceased father, while we were Bachelors, & he had kindly undertaken to superintend my Estate during my Military Services in the former War between Great Britain and France, that if I should fall therein, Mount Vernon (then less extensive in domain than at present) should become his property) I give and bequeath all that part thereof which is comprehended within the following limits, viz: Beginning at the ford of Dogue run, near my Mill, and extending along the road, and bounded thereby as it now goes, and ever has gone since my recollection of it, to the ford of little hunting Creek at the Gum spring until it comes to a knowl, opposite to an old road which formerly passed through the lower field of Muddy hole Farm; at which, on the north side of the said road are three red, or Spanish oaks marked as a corner, and a stone placed.--thence by a line of trees to be marked, rectangular to the back line, or outer boundary of the tract between Thomson Mason & myself,--thence with that line Easterly (now double ditching with a Post & Rail fence thereon) to the run of little hunting Creek. thence with that run which is the boundary between the lands of the late Humphrey Peake and me, to the tide water of the said Creek; thence by that water to Potomac River. thence with the River to the mouth of Dogue Creek. and thence with the said Dogue creek, to the place of beginning at the aforesaid ford; containing upwards of four thousand Acres, be the same more or less; together with the Mansion house, and all other buildings, and improvemts. thereon.

Second In consideration of the consanguinity between them and my wife, being as nearly related to her as to myself, as on account of the affection I had for, and the obligation I was under to, their father when living, who from his youth had attached himself to my person, and followed my fortunes through the vicissitudes of the late Revolution; afterwards devoting his time to the Superintendence of my private concerns for many years, whilst my public employments rendered it impracticable for me to do it myself, thereby affording me essential services, and always performing them in a manner the most filial and respectful: for these reasons I say, I give and bequeath to George Fayette Washington, & Laurence Augustine Washington and their heirs, my Estate East of little hunting Creek, lying on the River Potomac; including the farm of 360 Acres, Leased to Tobias Lear as noticed before, and containing in the whole, by Deeds, Two thousand and Seventy seven acres, be it more or less. Which said Estate it is my Will and desire should be equitably, & advantageously divided between them, according to quantity, quality and other circumstances when the youngest shall have arrived at the age of twenty one years, by three judicious and disinterested men; one to be chosen by each of the brothers, and the third by these two. In the meantime, if the termination of my wife's interest therein should have ceased, the profits arising therefrom are to be applied, for their joint uses and benefit:--

Third And whereas it has always been my intention, since my expectation of having issue has ceased, to consider the Grand children of my wife in the same light as I do my own relations, and to act a friendly part by them; more especially by the two whom we have reared from their earliest infancy, namely: Eleanor Parke Custis, and George Washington Parke Custis. And whereas the former of these hath lately intermarried with Lawrence Lewis, a son of my deceased sister Betty Lewis, by which union the inducement to provide for them both has been increased; Wherefore, I give and bequeath to the said Lawrence Lewis and Eleanor Parke Lewis, his wife, and their heirs, the residue of my Mount Vernon Estate, not already devised to my Nephew Bushrod Washington, comprehended within the following description, viz: All the land North of the Road leading from the ford of Dogue run to the Gum spring as described in the devise of the other part of the tract, to Bushrod Washington, until it comes to the stone and three red or Spanish oaks on the knowl. thence with the rectangular line to the back line (between Mr. Mason & me) thence with that line westerly, along the new double ditch to Dogue run, by the tumbling dam of my Mill; thence with the said run to the ford aforementioned; to which I add all the land I possess west of the said Dogue run, and Dogue Crk. bounded Easterly and Southerly thereby; together with the Mill, Distillery & all other houses and improvements on the premises, making together about two thousand Acres, be it more or less.

Fourth Actuated by the principle already mentioned, I give and bequeath to George Washington Parke Custis, the Grandson of my wife, and my Ward, and to his heirs, the tract I hold on four mile run in the vicinity of Alexandria, containing one thousand two hundred acres, more or less, and my entire Square, number twenty one, in the City of Washington.

Fifth All the rest and residue of my Estate, real and personal, not disposed of in manner aforesaid. In whatsoever consisting, wheresoever lying, and whensoever found, a schedule of which, as far as is recollected, with a reasonable estimate of its value, is hereunto annexed: I desire may be sold by my Executors at such times, in such manner, and in such credits (if an equal, valid, and satisfactory distribution of the specific property cannot be made without), as, in their judgment shall be most conducive to the interest of the parties concerned; and the monies arising therefrom to be divided into twenty three equal parts, and applied as follows, viz:

To William Augustine Washington, Elizabeth Spotswood, Jane Thornton and the heirs of Ann Ashton; son, and daughters of my deceased brother Augustine Washington, I give and bequeath four parts; that is, one part to each of them.

To Fielding Lewis, George Lewis, Robert Lewis, Howell Lewis and Betty Carter, sons and daughter of my deceased Sister Betty Lewis, I give and bequeath, five other parts, one to each of them.

To George Steptoe Washington, Lawrence Augustine Washington, Harriot Parks, and the heirs of Thornton Washington, sons and daughter of my deceased brother Samuel Washington, I give and bequeath other four parts, one part to each of them.

To Corbin Washington, and the heirs of Jane Washington, son and daughter of my deceased Brother John Augustine Washington I give and bequeath two parts; one part to each of them.

To Samuel Washington, Frances Ball and Mildred Hammond, son and daughters of my brother Charles Washington, I give and bequeath three parts: one part to each of them. And to George Fayette Washington, Charles Augustine Washington and Maria Washington, sons and daughter of my deceased nephew, Geo: Augustine Washington, I give one other part; that is, to each a third of that part.

To Elizabeth Parke Law, Martha Parke Peter, and Eleanor Parke Lewis, I give and bequeath three other parts, that is, a part to each of them.

And to my Nephews Bushrod Washington and Lawrence Lewis, and to my ward, the Grandson of my wife, I give and bequeath one other part:--that is, a third thereof to each of them. And if it should so happen, that any of these persons whose names are here enumerated (unknown to me) should now be deceased, or should die before me, that in either of these cases, the heirs of such deceased persons shall, notwithstanding, derive all the benefit of the bequest; in the same manner as if he, or she, was actually living at the time.

And by way of advice, I recommend it to my Executors not to be precipitate in disposing of the landed property (herein directed to be sold) if from temporary causes the Sale thereof should be dull; experience having fully evinced, that the price of land (especially above the Falls of the Rivers and on the Western Waters) have been progressively rising, and cannot be long checked in its increasing value. And I particularly recommend it to such of the Legatees (under this clause of my Will) as can make it convenient, to take each a share of my Stock in the Potomac Company in preference to the amount of what it might sell for: being thoroughly convinced myself, that no uses to which the money can be applied will be so productive as the Tolls arising from this navigation when in full operation (and this from the nature of things it must be 'ere long) & more especially if that of the Shenandoah is added thereto.

The family vault at Mount Vernon requiring repairs, and being improperly situated besides, I desire that a new one of Brick, and upon a larger Scale, may be built, at the foot of what is commonly called the Vineyard Inclosure, on the ground which is marked out. In which my remains, with those of my deceased relatives (now in the old Vault) and such others of my family as may chuse to be entombed there, may be deposited. And it is my express desire that my Corpse may be Interred in a private manner, without parade, or funeral Oration.

Lastly, I constitute and appoint my dearly beloved wife Martha Washington, My Nephews William Augustine Washington, Bushrod Washington, George Steptoe Washington, Samuel Washington & Lawrence Lewis, and my ward George Washington Parke Custis, (when he shall have arrived at the age twenty years) Executrix and Executors of this Will and testament, In the construction of which it will readily be perceived that no professional character has been consulted, or has had any Agency in the draught; and that, although it has occupied many of my leisure hours to digest and to through it into its present form, it may, notwithstanding, appear crude & incorrect. But having endeavored to be plain, and explicit in all the Devises, even at the expence of prolixity, perhaps of tautology, I hope, and trust, that no disputes will arise concerning them; but if, contrary to expectation, the case should be otherwise, from the want of legal expression, or the usual technical terms, or because too much or too little has been said on any of the Devises to be consonant with law, My Will and direction expressly is, that all disputes (if unhappily any should arise) shall be decided by three impartial and intelligent men, known for their probity and good understanding; two to be chosen by the disputants, each having the choice of one, and the third by those two. Which three men thus chosen, shall, unfettered by Law, or legal constructions, declare their Sense of the Testator's intention; and such decision is, to all intents and purposes to be as binding on the parties as if it had been given in the Supreme Court of the United States.

In witness of all, and of each of the things herein contained I have set my hand and Seal, this ninth day of July, in the year one thousand seven hundred and ninety and of the Independence of the United States the twenty fourth.

*Schedule of property comprehended in the foregoing will: which is directed to be sold, and some of it, conditionally is sold; with descriptive and explanatory notes relative thereto.

LINK

IN VIRGINIA.

Loudoun County
acres. price. dollars.
Difficult run 300 6,666 (a)
Loudoun & Fauquier
Ashbys Bent 2,481 $10 24,810 (b)
Chattins run 885 8 7,080
Berkeley
So. Fork of Bullskin 1,600
Head of Evan's Mill 453
On Wormely's line 183
2,236 20 44,720 (c)
Frederick
Bought from Mercer 571 20 11,420 (d)
Hampshire
On Potk, river above B. 240 15 3,600 (e)
Gloucester
On North River 400 abt 3,600 (f.)
Nansemond
Near Suffolk 1/3 of 1119 Acres 373 8 2,984 (g.)
Great Dismal Swamp
My dividend thereof abt 20,000 (h)
Ohio River
Round Bottom 587
Little Kenhawa 2,314
16 miles lowr down 2448
Opposite Big Bent 4395
9744 10 97.440 (i)
Great Kenhawa
Near the Mouth West 10990
East side above 7276
Mouth of Cole River 2000
Opposite thereto 125
Burning Spring 23341 200.000 (k)

Maryland
Charles County 600 6 3.600 (l)
Montgomery Do 519 12 6.288 (m)

Pennsylvania
Great Meadows 234 6 1.404 (n)

New York
Mohawk abt. 1000 6 6.000 (o)

North Westn. Territy
On little Miami 839
Ditto 977
Ditto 1235
3051 5 15.251 (p)

Kentucky
Rough Creek 3000
Ditto adjoing 2000
5000 2 10.000 (q)

Lots--viz.
City of Washington.
Two, near the Capital, Sqr 634 Cost 963;
and with Buildgs 1500 (r)
No. 5, 12, 13 & 14: the 3 last,
Water lots on the Eastern Branch, in Sqr. 667,
containing together 34,438 sqr. feet at 12 Cts 4,132 (s)

Alexandria
Corner of Pitt & Prince Stts. half an Acre;
laid out into buildings,
3 or 4 of wch are let on grd. Rent at $3 pr. foot. 4.000 (t)

Winchester
A lot in the town of half an Acre, &
another in the Commons of about 6 Acres, supposed. 400 (u)

Bath--or Warm Springs
Two well situated, & had buildings to the amt of £150. 800 (w)

STOCK

United States 6 pr Cts. 3746
Do deferred 1873 2500 6.246 (x)
3 pr Cts. 2946
Potomack Company
24 Shares, cost ea. £100 Sterg 20,666 (y)
James River Company
5 shares, each cost $100. 500 (z)
Bank of Columbia
170 shares, $40 each. 6.800 j
Bank of Alexandria,
besides 20 to the Free School 5 1.000

Stock, living, viz:
1 Covering horse, 5 Coh. horses; 4 riding do;
Six brood Mares; 20 working horses & mares;
2 Covering Jacks, & three young ones;
10 she Asses, 42 working mules; 15 younger ones 329 head of horned cattle, 640 head of sheep, &
a large Stock of Hogs,
the precise number unknown. 15.653
Agregate amt. $530.000

The value of livestock depends more upon
the quality than quantity of the
differeint species of it, and this agian upon
the demand, and judgment or fancy of purchasers.

Mount Vernon

9th: July 1799.

LINK

NOTES (a) This tract for the size of it is valuable, more for its situation than the quality of its soil, though that is good for Farming; with a considerable portion of grd. that might, very easily, be improved into Meadow. It lyes on the great road from the City of Washington, Alexandria & Georgetown to Leesburgh & Winchester; at Difficult bridge, nineteen miles from Alexandria, less from the city and George Town, and not more than three from Matildaville, at the Great Falls of Potomac.

There is a valuable seat on the Premises, and the whole is conditionally sold, for the sum annexed in the Schedule.

(b) What the selling prices of lands in the vicinity of these two tracts are, I know not; but compared with those above the ridge, and others below them, the value annexed will appear moderate, a less one would not obtain them from me.

(c) The surrounding land, not superior in soil, situation or properties of any sort, sell currently at from twenty to thirty dollars an Acre. The lowest price is affixed to these.

(d) The observations made in the last note applies equally to this tract; being in the vicinity of them, and of similar quality, altho' it lyes in another County.

(e) This tract, though small, is extremely valuable. It lyes on Potomac River about 12 miles above the Town of Bath (or Warm Springs) and is in the shape of a horse Shoe; the river running almost around it. Two hundred Acres of it is rich low grounds; with a great abundance of the largest and finest Walnut trees; which, with the produce of the Soil, might, (by means of the improved navigation of the Potomac) be brought to a shipping port with more ease, and at a smaller expence, than that which is transported 30 miles only by land.

(f) This tract is of second rate Gloucester low grounds. It has no improvements thereon, but lyes on navigable water, abounding in Fish and Oysters. It was received in payment of a debt (carrying interest) and valued in the year 1789 by an impartial Gentleman at £800. N B. It has lately been sold, and there is due thereon, a balance equal to what is annexed the Schedule.

(g) These 373 acres are the third part of undivided purchases made by the deceased Fielding Lewis Thomas Walker and myself; on full conviction that they would become valuable. The land lyes on the road from Suffolk to Norfolk; touches (if I am not mistaken) some part of the Navigable water of Nansemond River; borders on, and comprehends part of the Rich Dismal Swamp; is capable of great improvement; and from its situation must become extremely valuable.

(h) This an undivided Interest wch. I held in the Great Dismal Swamp Company; containing about 4000 acres, with my part of the Plantation & Stock thereon belonging to the company in the sd Swamp.

(i) These several tracts of land are of the first quality on the Ohio River, in the parts where they are situated; being almost if not altogether River bottoms.

The smallest of these tracts is actually sold at ten dollars an acre but the consideration therefor not received; the rest are equally valuable and will sell as high, especially that which lyes just below the little Kenhawa and is opposite to a thick settlement on the West side the Rivr.

The four tracts have an aggregate breadth upon the River of Sixteen miles and is bounded thereby that distance.

(j) These are the nominal prices of the Shares of the Banks of Alexandria and Columbia, the selling prices vary according to circumstances. But as the Stock usually divide from eight to ten per cent per annum, they must be worth the former, at least, so long as the Banks are conceived to be Secure, though from circumstances may, sometimes be below it.

(k) These tracts are situated on the Great Kenhawa River, and the first four are bounded thereby for more than forty miles. It is acknowledged by all who have seen them (and of the tract containing 10990 acres which I have been on myself, I can assert) that there is no richer, or more valuable land in all that Region; They are conditionally sold for the sum mentioned in the Schedule; that is $200,000 & if the terms of that sale are not complied with they will command considerably more. The tract of which the 125 acres is a moiety, was taken up by General Andrew Lewis and myself for, & on account of a bituminous Spring which it contains, of so inflammable a nature as to burn as freely as spirits, and is as nearly difficult to extinguish.

(l) I am but little acquainted with this land, although I have once been on it. It was received (many years since) in discharge of a debt due to me from Daniel Jenifer Adams at the value annexed thereto & must be worth more. It is very level, lyes near the River Potomac

(m) This tract lyes about 30 miles above the City of Washington, not far from Kittoctan. It is good farming Land, and by those who are well acquainted with it I am informed that it would sell at twelve or $15 pr. acre.

(n) This land is valuable on account of its local situation & other properties. It affords an exceeding good stand on Braddock's road from Fort Cumberland to Pittsburgh, and besides a fertile soil, possesses a large quantity of natural Meadow, fit for the scythe. It is distinguished by the appellation of the Great Meadows, where the first action with the French in the year 1754 was fought.

(o) This is the moiety of about 2000 Acs. which remains unsold of 6071 Acres on the Mohawk River (Montgomery Cty) in a Patent granted to Daniel Coxe in the Township of Coxeborough & Carolana, as will appear by Deed from Marinus Willett & wife to Geo. Clinton (late Governor of New York) and myself. The latter sales have been at Six dollars an acr; and what remains unsold will fetch that or more

(p) The quality of these lands and their Situation, may be known by the Surveyors Certificates, which are filed along with the Patents. They lye in the vicinity of Cincinnati; one tract near the mouth of the little Miami, another seven and the third ten miles up the same. I have been informed that they will readily command more than they are estimated at.

(q) For the description of these tracts in detail, see General Spotswoods letters, filed with the other papers relating to them. Beside the General good quality of the Land, there is a valuable Bank of Iron Ore thereon: which, when the settlement becomes more populous (and settlers are moving that way very fast) will be found very valuable; as the rough Creek, a branch of Green River affords ample water for Furnaces and forges.

Lots, viz.:

CITY OF WASHINGTON

(r) The two lots near the Capital, in square 634, cost me $963 only; but in this price I was favoured, on condition that I should build two Brick houses three Story high each: without this reduction the selling prices of those Lots would have cost me about $1350. These lots, with the buildings thereon, when completed will stand me in $15000 at least.

(s) Lots No. 5, 12, 13 & 14, on the Eastern branch, are advantageously situated on the water, & although many lots much less convenient have sold a great deal higher I will rate these at 12 Cts. the square foot only.

ALEXANDRIA.

(t) For this lot, though unimproved, I have refused $3500. It has since been laid off into proper sized lots for building on; three or 4 of which are let on ground Rent, forever, at three dollars a foot on the Street. and this price is asked for both fronts on Pitt & Princes Street.

WINCHESTER.

(u) As neither the lot in the Town or Common have any improvements on them, it is not easy to fix a price, but as both are well situated, it is presumed the price annexed to them in the Schedule is a reasonable value.

BATH.

(w) The lots in Bath (two adjoining) cost me, to the best of my recollection, between fifty and sixty pounds 20 years ago; and the buildings thereon £150 more. Whether property there has increased or decreased in its value, and in what condition the houses are, I am ignorant. but suppose they are not valued too high.

(x) These are the sums which are actually funded. And though no more in the aggregate than $7,566; stand me in at least ten thousand pounds Virginia money. being the amount of bonded and other debts due to me, and discharged during the War when money had depreciated in that ratio, and was so settled by public authority.

(y) The value annexed to these shares is what they actually cost me and is the price affixed by Law: & although the present settling price is under par, my advice to the Legatees (for whose benefit they are intended, especially those who can afford to lye out of the money) is that each should take and hold one; there being a moral certainty of a great & increasing profit arising from them in the course of a few years.

(z) It is supposed that the Shares in the James River Company must also be productive. But of this I can give no decided opinion for want of more accurate information

2,250 posted on 02/08/2005 6:24:39 AM PST by nolu chan
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To: lentulusgracchus
you ain't never bin to a gun show?!

'Bout every fourth or fifth one, someone from the Klan shows up and rents a table, hangs up the Klan flag, and sets out a big tray of knives and badges with their emblems on them.

Never been to a gun show, though I have a nice set of 1873 45-70s.

In the late 1950s I saw a single car with KKK markings on it and a bunch of guys in it once on West Broad Street in Savannah. That was a dangerous street for the Klan to be on (mostly black). Oh, and I almost forgot, a white guy who lived in an apartment above me in Atlanta had his car window shot out in Florida probably by the Klan -- he worked for Martin Luther King. Those are the only two occasions I saw anything related to the Klan, other than Robert Byrd.

2,251 posted on 02/08/2005 6:28:08 AM PST by rustbucket
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To: lentulusgracchus
There was no rebellion.

Yes there was.

Squishbob Liarpants rides again. Still ain't true, Bubba.

See? Disagree with you just one little bit and you get all pissed of and immediately go to name calling. Can 'boy' be far behind?

2,252 posted on 02/08/2005 6:28:18 AM PST by Non-Sequitur
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To: x
The worst parts of racism were not a legacy of slavery, but of Reconstruction. Whites were disenfranchised, while blacks became pawns for carpetbaggers and the like. This brought the interests of Southern whites into conflict with blacks and led to such things as the KKK and Jim Crow.

I do believe that that the South would have disposed of slavery in peaceful fashion, just as Brazil did. Dunno how it worked out for the status of the ex-slaves in CSA, but I suspect racism and discrimination would have been "softer" but longer lived.
2,253 posted on 02/08/2005 6:36:54 AM PST by Little Ray (I'm a reactionary, hirsute, gun-owning, knuckle dragging, Christian Neanderthal and proud of it!)
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To: fortheDeclaration
[you quoting Stephens]: Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery -- subordination to the superior race -- is his natural and normal condition. [Applause.] This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science.

How is it you conclude the South had discarded religion for 'science (evolution)' when there were probably far more Southern justifications of slavery based on the Bible than there were on 'science'? You've found an isolated quote, extrapolate it to evolution, ignore religion-based slavery justifications, and then apply your conclusion about science and religion to the whole 1860s South?

Give me a break.

2,254 posted on 02/08/2005 7:01:13 AM PST by rustbucket
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To: Little Ray; x
I suspect racism and discrimination would have been "softer" but longer lived.

LOL -- not like the hard cases in Cicero and Brooklyn, right?

2,255 posted on 02/08/2005 7:08:40 AM PST by lentulusgracchus ("Whatever." -- sinkspur)
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To: lentulusgracchus

More like Brazil where everybody is mixed race but nobody admits it, and they discriminate base on percieved degree of mixing...


2,256 posted on 02/08/2005 7:14:57 AM PST by Little Ray (I'm a reactionary, hirsute, gun-owning, knuckle dragging, Christian Neanderthal and proud of it!)
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To: rustbucket; fortheDeclaration
there were probably far more Southern justifications of slavery based on the Bible than there were on 'science'

Well, here is one:

EXPOSITION of The Views of the Baptists, RELATIVE TO THE COLOURED POPULATION In the United States (Charleston, 1822; 2nd ed., 1838)

[Excerpt]

The result of this inquiry and reasoning, on the subject of slavery, brings us, sir, if I mistake not, very regularly to the following conclusions:--That the holding of slaves is justifiable by the doctrine and example contained in Holy writ; and is; therefore consistent with Christian uprightness, both in sentiment and conduct. That all things considered, the Citizens of America have in general obtained the African slaves, which they possess, on principles, which can be justified; though much cruelty has indeed been exercised towards them by many, who have been concerned in the slave-trade, and by others who have held them here, as slaves in their service; for which the authors of this cruelty are accountable. That slavery, when tempered with humanity and justice, is a state of tolerable happiness; equal, if not superior, to that which many poor enjoy in countries reputed free. That a master has a scriptural right to govern his slaves so as to keep it in subjection; to demand and receive from them a reasonable service; and to correct them for the neglect of duty, for their vices and transgressions; but that to impose on them unreasonable, rigorous services, or to inflict on them cruel punishment, he has neither a scriptural nor a moral right. At the same time it must be remembered, that, while he is receiving from them their uniform and best services, he is required by the Divine Law, to afford them protection, and such necessaries and conveniencies of life as are proper to their condition as servants; so far as he is enabled by their services to afford them these comforts, on just and rational principles. That it is the positive duty of servants to reverence their master, to be obedient, industrious, faithful to him, and careful of his interests; and without being so, they can neither be the faithful servants of God, nor be held as regular members of the Christian Church.

-- Richard Furman, President of the Baptist State Convention, to the Governor of South Carolina
Dec. 24th, 1822

2,257 posted on 02/08/2005 7:29:54 AM PST by lentulusgracchus ("Whatever." -- sinkspur)
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To: Gianni; M. Espinola
BTW, how do you [M. Espinola] propose that they could have forced people to own slaves?

Inquiring minds want to know.

2,258 posted on 02/08/2005 7:30:50 AM PST by 4CJ (Laissez les bon FReeps rouler - Quo Gladius de Veritas - Deo vindice!)
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To: nolu chan
If you don't like that example, provide your own.

Bwahahahahahahaha!

2,259 posted on 02/08/2005 7:36:04 AM PST by 4CJ (Laissez les bon FReeps rouler - Quo Gladius de Veritas - Deo vindice!)
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To: lentulusgracchus; M. Espinola
Your point doesn't have a point. The Northern States agreed to that language in 1787, and you can't get around the fact that their attempts to retrieve runaways had been pre-approved by the Peoples of the Northern States by ratification, the highest level of legislation there is. It was in the social compact, dude.

What we have here is the epitome of hypocrisy, it's ok for Yankees to welch on the deal, but grunt and squeal when the money supply is going to dry up with secession, and invade by force of arms to prevent it - to heck with the principles enshrined in the Declaration:

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

2,260 posted on 02/08/2005 7:43:14 AM PST by 4CJ (Laissez les bon FReeps rouler - Quo Gladius de Veritas - Deo vindice!)
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