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To: justshutupandtakeit
That is completely false wrt to Hamilton's intentions and interests.

I don't think so, obviously.

He had one interest outside raising his family and that was the strengthening of the Union everything was bent toward that end.

Rather too much was bent toward that end -- and you forgot to add "as he saw it". Hamilton was, as I've said, an operator and a manipulator. Lest anyone think I'm being overly hard on Hamilton, consider this first-person account of a conversation that Hamilton had in 1782 with New York republican and later Antifederalist Abraham Yates, Jr. Hamilton, in Yates's first-person recordation of the meeting, asked him

Wether if the Financier appointed me [Yates] Receiver of Taxes I would promiss on Every Occasion to promote the view of the Financier [Gouverneur Morris, a Hamilton ally] tho it should be against my oppinion & should Even I conceive it to be against the Intrest of the State. I got a little out of Temper I told him I was an Honest Man and Acted agreeable to the Dictate of my Conscience. He farther in Conversation told me he looked upon the Loan Office as useless that it ought to be put in the Hand, of the Receiver of Taxes or such other Person as was under the Immediate Direction of the Financier. I told him I thought the Financier had too much Power already and that Congress had better Curtail him -- but I thought Congress could not now take it up as he had done Congress such Essential Service.

Quoted in The Antifederalists, p. 112.

This memorandum clearly shows that Hamilton valued others merely as manipulable digits on his hand, or on that of his ally Morris. It might be replied that the programs, causes, and concepts he was promoting were more important than people, but to quote Lee Iacocca, as he fired someone else who was unsupportive of others, "that's too bad, because people is all we've got around here."

...he sacrificed his opportunity to create a fortune through his legal work by running the government from 1789 to 1799 ( Adams was unaware that he controlled his administration for three years).

Thank you for corroborating my point. If he wanted to run the administration, he should have been elected President of the United States and achieved and accepted the full responsibility, instead of clandestinely and unaccountably exercising someone else's responsibility for him. This is not honest behavior, and collaborating with people like Hamilton is never a good idea. Neither is supporting them and neither is praising them for their effectiveness. If you exalt effectiveness over principles, you might as well subside into a naked despotism, and let Hamilton's massive ego run rampant.

Why bother with democratic republicanism, if you admire men like Hamilton who "can get it done"? That's not a New World value, except in the corporofascist culture, if you can call it that, of Northern industrialism.

Consider, too, the value of the contradiction between Hamilton's desire that a man like Abraham Yates, Jr., should subordinate his opinions and judgment to another (Gouverneur Morris) as a condition of holding office, and what Hamilton himself did in the ostensible service of the Adams Administration.

His contemporaries knew the same sorts of things about Hamilton, and that knowledge blunted his effectiveness in public (as opposed to his ability behind closed doors, which you attest). For example, during the New York ratification convention, which was dominated by Antifederalists who were nevertheless persuadable after the ratification of the Constitution by ten other States, meaning that the Confederation was in effect already at an end,

Hamilton has been given much credit for the outcome, but actually his views were so well known in New York that his activity was perhaps more of a liability than an asset to the Federalists. Charles Tillinghast reported, "You would be surprised did you not know the Man, what an amazing Republican Hamilton wishes to make himself be considered. But he is known." [Emphasis in original.]

Op. cit. p. 238.

1,200 posted on 11/25/2004 2:42:02 AM PST by lentulusgracchus ("Whatever." -- sinkspur)
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To: lentulusgracchus

That is an amusing scenario of Yates, Clinton's handpuppet, protesting an assault upon his "integrity." He was sent by the Old Man as a keeper of Hamilton to the CC. Prior to that Hamilton attempted to assure his loyalty and fidelity to the Union's interest. That, of course, failed and when H refused to hire him became infuriated. The word of Yates, a second or third rater, against a Titan is of no interest except as chaff trown in the eyes of History.

What this episode shows is that H was not going to put antagonistic forces in power and rightly so. Washington found out the problems with such appointments after appointing Jefferson as SecState and watching sabotage from the very center of his Administration.

Hamilton's huge role in our history was a testimony to his talent and willingness to sacrifice all for his country. Since Adams retained those cabinet members who had served under Washington he unknowingly retained their tendency to consult H on everything as they had since the beginning of the federal government. Adams tendency to leave the Capital for long stretches at Braintree did not mean the work of the government could be suspended.

As for being elected president, that was the likely result of the situation in the 90s until Jefferson's henchmen torpedoed his chances by revealing the Reynolds affair, apparently a badger game run by Burr, through the detestable Callender. Him not being President was one of America's greatest tragedies along with the Lincoln assassination.

As for the silly idea that he was a manipulator that completely is at odds with his ability to make friends who stayed friends for life utterly devoted to the Little Lion.
They certainly did not object to his "manipulation." There was no man more upfront than Alexander Hamilton.

It was precisely his devotion to principle which caused most of his political trouble rather than resort to fraud, sneakiness and deception, like Jefferson, he stated what he believed and forced people to deal with it. He was truly the pivot around which politics of the 1790s revolved as Jefferson was forced to admit- a Colossus.

His role in conversion of enough of the majority antis to a federalist vote for the Constitution at the NY Ratification Convention was one of the most widely praised achievements in the history of politics and was matched by the role in explaining the Constitution to the masses in The Federalist.
This rapidly produced work is the most important work in Western political theory since Aristotle and Plato. Such works at these makes Hamilton's fame and glory permanent. They and his other huge achievements places him in the Triumverate with Washington, and Lincoln as the greatest fighters for the Union and the greatest Americans. Without him the Union would not have survived.


1,444 posted on 11/26/2004 8:46:17 PM PST by justshutupandtakeit (Public Enemy #1, the RATmedia.)
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