Whitefield versus Wesley

www.albatrus.com ^ | Iain Murray

[Alex Murphy]

Iain Murray on Whitefield and Wesley

[excerpted, beginning at fourth paragraph]

When Whitefield returned to England at the end of 1738, after his first visit to America, he found that the awakening in London had been furthered by the conversion and subsequent ministry of the Wesleys. Immediately they began to work together. Under Whitefield's preaching the revival spread to Bristol and the West country in February and March 1739, and when he left that area at the beginning of April 1739, John Wesley was given the oversight of the work.

But before three months had elapsed it began to be evident that there had not been the same doctrinal development in the Wesleys on all points mentioned above. The fact is that while John Wesley had at his conversion in May 1738 accepted evangelical views on sin, faith, and the re-birth, he had at the same time retained his pre-conversion opinions on the doctrines of predestination and the extent of the atonement.

[From the final footnote to the article]

On leaving England in 1739 Whitefield was the leader of the awakening; when he returned in 1741 it was to find himself supplanted and Wesley organizing the movement around himself. He had cause to write at a later date: "I have been supplanted, despised, censured, maligned, judged by and separated from my nearest, dearest friends." (Works of George Whitefield, edited by Gillies, vol. 2, p. 466.) But Whitefield was too great to contend for personal prominence. The legend of "England before and after Wesley " began to originate from this time.

[Revelation 911]

I have no idea what you're talking about. You were the one who popped a gasket and started swearing.

my "gasket" is still in place LOL - and asking that something that perpetuates animosity to be "damned" is hardly "swearing" -

You were the one who threatened to have someone banned.

you mean suspended - you people are such sticklers for the absolute correct phraseology, get it right - there is a huge difference....but it is consistent with your attempt to mischaracterize my comments and intent

I think you owe everyone here an apology for your outburst, which was hardly an example of Christ-like behavior.

oh please, youre the last one to lecture us

I tried to make my point in two words, which were not an attack, but a gentle exhortation and a statement of obvious fact,

I'll do the same in two letters....bs (thats swearing)

and now you're trying defend the indefensible. I harbor no ill will toward you, but I'm not so sure the reverse is true.

No, Im flagging thread jumping as defined by the rules. You see, when any mis-statement or offense is made - certain folk here - typically jean and alex, catalogue it and hold on to it - sometimes for years - only to bring it up later. Christ forgives our transgressions, why dont they ?

As for you - your only interaction with me is much like Jeans - when the swarm has been activated - as is the case now - I harbor no ill will - however - what I have seen in the past 24hrs publicly and privately convinces me that some grpl's are malicious and spiteful people. If you care for details ask ctd and alex

In the meantime - I dont need you or any other calvinist lecturing me on fruits of the spirit.....its frankly laughable

You do however remain in my prayers

[nobdysfool]

I appreciate your prayers, but given the attitude toward me, I wonder if they're even being heard....

[visually_augmented]

Since I am new to Free Republic, could someone please explain to me why this thread was move to the smokey backroom? I thought it was on the Religion board until just recently. Is this typically done when the Moderator is pinged??? Or when childish banter becomes prolific?

[xzins]

There are a number of things that Arnold could do in California that would open the way for a Bush advance in the state. The last poll I saw had the pres. behind now by only 8 points. That's in the range of making this a targetable state.

The Christian vote in California has to turn out. I think Arnold could work on that angle in a variety of ways.

I can't imagine a real, biblically based Christian voting in any other way.

[Revelation 911]

Banned or not, believe it or not, you and your friends will be in my prayers anyway. Have a blessed evening, Rev.

where did I ask for your banning? - I asked for your suspension -

after yesterdays frmail antics, I frankly do not covet your prayer. In the 5 yrs I have been poking around here (lurking as well), that was probably the most malicious, sinister thing I have ever seen done from someone calling themselves Christian. It was divisive and purposely meant to drive a wedge between ctd and myself.

Amusingly, I apologized to ctd for the comments I had made privately, off the cuff (to you a week or so earlier), before I was aware you divulged them to him in a frmail that you sent to me and intentionally failed to note as "cc'd" to him.

To his character - he forgave me - merely reinforcing the Scriptural concept of the truth setting you free.

This left you powerless as you hadnt expected us to be resolved when you pulled that wedge from your bag of sin and tried to divide us

You however have exposed your heart

.....and its malicious one

But unlike you and jean which catalogue every offense - percieved or otherwise, I forgive you and pray for your soul, just as I forgive and pray for Jeans and nf's

No gasket problem here - no blood pressure problem here - no meds problem here - or any other insult or insinuation you folks can muster - Im just plain tired of the bickering and will be taking a few days off on my own, just as Corin has wisely done

Im confident you'll continue in your nonsense, if not with us, then the Catholics, at which time I hope the relig mod (courtesy ping) see's fit to cause much gnashing of teeth with the abaddons of this forum

[HarleyD]

There are actually several places in scriptures where it says that God “repented” or “changed His mind”. But Dr. E is correct. These are literary allusion. Consider the following two verses:

“God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?” Number 23:19

“So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.” Exodus 32:14

You can reconcile the Exodus passage with the Numbers passage as a literary allusion. A number of these verses also become clearer when you go back to the proper translation where they often mean God withheld His wrath-not “changing His mind” in our sense of the term. I looked up this passage and this is indeed what it says.

The problem is that you CANNOT reconcile the Numbers passage with the Exodus passage. If the Lord CAN change His mind then the Numbers passage is false and the Bible is in error. Those of us who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible do not believe the Bible can be false. So the ONLY proper interpretation is to reconcile Exodus (and other passages) against Numbers.

[Revelation 911]

I appreciate your prayers, but given the attitude toward me, I wonder if they're even being heard....

I forgive you

[Revelation 911]

Christ forgives our transgressions, why dont they ?

you neglected to answer this

[ShadowAce]

Exodus, as a history book (like Genesis), does not contain hyperbole, allusions, etc. like the Revelation of John, or Isaiah, or Daniel. If you claim otherwise, you open up the argument that the world was not created in 6 days--because, after all, "that's merely literary allusion."

Sorry, but I guess we'll have to disagree on this one.

[Jean Chauvin]

Um...Rev...

...the followingf from your Post #85:

"after yesterdays frmail antics, I frankly do not covet your prayer. In the 5 yrs I have been poking around here (lurking as well), that was probably the most malicious, sinister thing I have ever seen done from someone calling themselves Christian. It was divisive and purposely meant to drive a wedge between ctd and myself.

Amusingly, I apologized to ctd for the comments I had made privately, off the cuff (to you a week or so earlier), before I was aware you divulged them to him in a frmail that you sent to me and intentionally failed to note as "cc'd" to him."

...is in violation of stated FR rules.

You are revealing contents and personal information from Freepmail.

Didn't you just throw a hissy-fit yesterday charging Alex with the same?

"damn it", I suppose I should act like a good Arminian and ask for your suspension. But I won't. It's not my style.

I'd rather have the lurkers see what you guys actually say and do.

Have a great day!

;)

Jean

[Jean Chauvin]

If God foreknew that he would change his mind and how and when he would do it, did he really change his mind?

Perfect forknowledge and a God changing his mind simply are incompatible.

Are you arguing that God does not perfectly foreknow the future?

Jean

[Jean Chauvin]

If God foreknew that he would change his mind and how and when he would do it, did he really change his mind?

Perfect forknowledge and a God changing his mind simply are incompatible.

Are you arguing that God does not perfectly foreknow the future?

Jean

[Oberon]

I've always thought it funny that you can find these great whacking diatribes on the web, posted by mad five-point-plus Calvinists explaining why Calvinism is exclusively orthodox.

If they really believe it, who are they trying to convince? =]

[Alex Murphy]

"damn it", I suppose I should act like a good Arminian and ask for your suspension. But I won't. It's not my style.

I'm Alex Murphy, and I approved this message.

[stop_killing_unborn_babies]

I second it.

[stop_killing_unborn_babies]

Your baiting, insults, lack of comprehension, whining and griping over the slightest thing you can find to play a victim over are rather boorish and have the effect of causing me to simply ignore you.

[visually_augmented]

Not that I fall into the categories to which you have alluded, but...

I for one espouse the truth of Scripture because I am called to be salt and light. The salt must season and the light must illuminate the darkness.

But of course none of this will convince on it's own merit - only God's Holy Spririt will convict the hearts of men. I choose to believe that God will use me in His purpose.

[Revelation 911]

You are revealing contents and personal information from Freepmail.

my own freepmail - oh please

[Oberon]

You must not be a doctrinaire Calvinist then...not the sort of ultra-Calvinist that one occasionally finds.

You see, you used the phrase "choose to believe" in your reply. Admittedly not with regard to salvation, but still...

[stop_killing_unborn_babies]

You must not be a doctrinaire Calvinist then...not the sort of ultra-Calvinist that one occasionally finds.

Define "ultra-Calvinist".