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To: capitan_refugio; 4ConservativeJustices
[cr]
(1) A shared cultural heritage,
(2) A common language,
(3) A sense of national identification,
(4) Recognized and defensible borders,
(5) Diplomatic recognition neighboring nations,
(6) A functioning national government If one were to concede the CSA the first three factors (which I don't for various reasons), there is no way they could claim the last two.

Iraq is not a nation. It cannot defend its borders.
Is the Vatican a nation? Can it defend its borders?
If we withdraw our recognition of Canada, will they cease to be a nation?
If the CSA had no functioning national government, who the heck was killing all those Yankees?
The CSA seemed to defend its borders against the biggest army in the world for about 4 years.
Against Germany in WW2, France and Poland lasted weeks. Were France or Poland nations?

639 posted on 09/03/2004 9:50:35 AM PDT by nolu chan
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To: nolu chan; lentulusgracchus; capitan_refugio
The concept of nationhood to the Wlat Brigadier is entirely rooted in semantics. When it serves his purpose to permit nationhood for the confederacy, it has those attributes. When it serves his purpose to deny nationhood, it lacks those attributes.

In common example, the brigadier will permit the attributes of nationhood by demanding a stringent adherence to CSA law while attempting to allege the confederate government's shortcomings under those laws. He simultaneously denies the attributes of nationhood in all matters involving the CSA's standing as a combattant in war under the laws of nations...except, of course, when the CSA is accused of starving prisoners at Andersonville, in which case they are war criminals under those same laws of nations. But that newly acquired status switches back the moment Sherman comes into the picture, in which case he was only putting down "rebellious provinces." Nationhood typically resumes for them when diplomacy between the commands of the two armies come up...only to disappear again when diplomacy with Saint Abe over a peaceful secession in 1861 becomes an issue, though not diplomacy with Saint Abe at the Hampton Rhodes conference 4 years later, in which Saint Abe is always portrayed as extending a hand to "bind up the nation's wounds" or some such nonsense only to be shunned by the evil slavers. Confederate nationhood to them is kind of like a light switch that's in their hands. When it suits them to have it on, they switch it on. When it suits them to turn it off, they switch it off.

Of course all of this ignores and neglects the true de facto nationhood status of the CSA because it has nothing to do with that status, nothing to do with actual facts, and everything to do with the semantical convenience of an argument.

640 posted on 09/03/2004 10:10:46 AM PDT by GOPcapitalist ("Can Lincoln expect to subjugate a people thus resolved? No!" - Sam Houston, 3/1863)
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To: nolu chan

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths that Lincolnites will go to defend their god.


647 posted on 09/03/2004 11:36:22 AM PDT by 4CJ (||) Our sins put Him on the Cross, His love for us kept Him there (||)
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To: nolu chan
You enjoy being picked apart today, don't you?

"Iraq is not a nation. It cannot defend its borders."

The community of nations recently recognized the return to Iraq of its sovereignty. Its borders are well-defined, and at present, defended and defensible.

"Is the Vatican a nation? Can it defend its borders?"

The Vatican is not a "nation." It is best described as a principalitConcilliation between the Holy See and Italy (its only neighbor) establishes the Vatican as an independent state. Its borders are fixed and guarded.

"If we withdraw our recognition of Canada, will they cease to be a nation?"

In that event we will not recognize the validity of the state, but Canada would undoubtedly still be recognized by other neighbor and historic partners. A better discussion about withdrawn recognition might be directed to the situation in the former Yugoslavia.

"If the CSA had no functioning national government, who the heck was killing all those Yankees?

Insurrectionist armies, often under the direction of a governor or department head. The point is that the purported government of the CAS never had control of the territory it claimed, and progressively lost control of such territory until it collapsed. Ignobly collapsed, I might add.

"The CSA seemed to defend its borders against the biggest army in the world for about 4 years.

Talk about breath-taking displays of ignorance! The CSA successively lost Missouri, lost Kentucky, lost west Virgina, and lost Tennessee by mid-1862. Texas and Arkansas were soon thereafter cut off and left in control of the virtual dictator, Kirby Smith. At the same time, control of the Gulf Coast was lost, from Florida, to Louisiana, to Texas. Then Sherman's offensive further dissected the mouldering remains of the Confederacy. Defended for 4 years! They weren't defended for 4 months!!

"Against Germany in WW2, France and Poland lasted weeks. Were France or Poland nations?"

They effectively ceased to be after the Germans got done with them. Fortunately, for them, they had help within a few years.

653 posted on 09/03/2004 12:13:49 PM PDT by capitan_refugio
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